'Flight shaming' and the ethics of recreational flying?

[Thruster88]

Onetrack I  guess we sit back and see how many hybrid aircraft come to the market in the next 5-10 years.?

 

According to the manufacturer the Pipistrel alpha 912 burns 9.5lph doing circuits, an average of 26kwh (my calculations). The electric version with a 21kwh (126kg) battery, can also do an hour of circuts. They are claiming a 13% power recovery on decent. The electro has been available since 2015 but sales seem sluggish, anyone know how many are actually working in Australia?     

 

 

[mnewbery]

One Pipistrel Alpha Electro is working in Jandakot and it's been there since the start of 2018. Here is a video of it.

 

Nobody has mentioned sail planes and motor gliders or did I miss that?

 

 

[M61A1]

Nobody has mentioned sail planes and motor gliders or did I miss that?

 

That's pretty much a different topic all together.

 

 

[spacesailor]

Most aircraft motors have a third bering for the Thrust 

 

spacesailor

 

 

[Jim McDowall]

Nobody has mentioned sail planes and motor gliders or did I miss that?

 

Maybe it is due to the number of in aircraft fires both on the ground and in the air. Once LiPo batteries start burning the fire is hard to extinguish.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Maybe it is due to the number of in aircraft fires both on the ground and in the air. Once LiPo batteries start burning the fire is hard to extinguish.

 

Thermal runaway remains one of the biggest issues to solve. In my experience in the transport industry we've been looking for the Big Battery Breakthrough for 34 years. If we could crack the Thermal Runaway/Charge/Range trio we will be into electric vehicles and aircraft decades sooner.

 

 

[onetrack]

The metal oxide LiPo's that power your phone, tablet and laptop are the ones with the fire/thermal runaway issues.

 

The newer technology Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries have a considerably lower fire risk and the chances of thermal runaway with them are very low.

 

I've read articles where the LiFePo4's were cooked to test their combustibility, and ability to initiate a TR, and even at 250 deg C, the LiFePo4's would only smoulder, and they wouldn't initiate a TR event.

 

I do agree, battery design and energy intensity is still lagging seriously, and it may be 10 years before we see battery technology advance enough to provide adequate energy capacity for size and weight.

 

Caterpillar poured about US$10M into a JV with Firefly, in 2006, with the intention of producing a lightweight, low-cost battery, made from simple basic elements such as carbon and silica, that were readily available anywhere, and which were not rare earth elements that could be cornered to hold the market to ransom. 

 

Cat and Firefly failed in that respect, but Firefly did end up developing a carbon-foam lead-acid battery (Firefly Oasis) that is quite successful as far as a Standby/RV/Truck/Marine power battery goes.

 

It is lighter than the standard L-A batteries, but lasts 2 to 3 times as long as a standard L-A, can be taken to a very low SOC regularly without problems, and can be produced at 60% of the cost of other "advanced" batteries.

 

Firefly Oasis production cannot keep up with demand just in the U.S., that's the reason we haven't seen it here yet.

 

Interestingly, it appears that the Universities are the area where we will see major battery developments - not from companies or private enterprise, or venture capital - although Ralph Sarich, he of the Orbital Engine fame, has enough money and interest in such developments, to progress them.

 

The Uni's have the facilities and students who are interested enough in fiddling and constant testing of new materials and processes, to finally produce a breakthrough in battery technology. 

 

I was quite surprised to find the Americans bemoaning the lack of venture capital, and their low level of tertiary-qualified people intent on, and occupied in, R&D - such that America now has the lowest level of R&D of any developed country, and the lowest level of tertiary-qualified people, per capita, overall.

 

It seems rather obvious that American companies are simply interested in quick dollars, and rapid developments leading to major returns in a short time frame - which is not what improved battery technology is all about. It's a slow grind over an extended time frame, with many setbacks.

 

As a result, I believe it is more likely we will see vastly improved battery design come out of Asia, long before we see it come out of America.

 

With the U.S.'s substantial reserves of fossil fuels and a history of being tied completely to those fossil fuels, the mentality of America is that electric power is not something that will ever replace fossil fuels, particularly in transportation.

 

 

[Thruster88]

This is unfortunate, I was looking forward to the test program to see if it lived up to the hype. 

 

 https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/eviation-electric-aircraft-prototype-damaged-in-testing-fire/

 

 

[facthunter]

Batteries have to be considered "potentially" dangerous as they store energy . ANY leakage and you get HEAT.

 

   .AS for regenerative power in a plane it will only work for slippery planes  that glide shallow. A car or railway carriage will roll down a hill that's not  a large angle. Wherever you would use a brake, the regenerative aspect would work and if you had to use spoiler s (airbrakes)  a similar situation  would exist but that's NOT a common situation in a plane. IF you do that you have left your descent point too late . You could have saved the fuel by descending earlier.. On circuits, a saving may be possible but you would have to fly the plane in a "special" way you maximise it to get the most effect and again the plane would have to be somewhat slippery. It won't work with draggy  stuff or at least not be worth the complexity weight and cost. Nev

 

 

[M61A1]

 

Interestingly, it appears that the Universities are the area where we will see major battery developments

 

Good luck with that......they're too busy indoctrinating people to teach them how to think.  

 

 

[Hargraves]

Your quite right to have concerns on this issue Alan. Because compaired to private vehicle use, heavy road transport and comercial air travel and freight, our emmisions are in fact miniscule and the way politics and heard ignorance works nowdays that makes us a prime minority target for the oppertunistic scum we call the right honerable  members. 

 

 

[kgwilson]

Good luck with that......they're too busy indoctrinating people to teach them how to think.  

 

Well Sydney University has developed a Gel version of the zinc bromine flow battery which has the capacity to take on the Lithium Ion market with materials that are common & cheap. The spinoff Company Gelion is well advanced & has produced a lighting solution called Gelion Endure. The current focus is on large scale stuff such as PV storage but the technology is apparently infinitely scalable. This may have applications for aircraft batteries as zinc bromine is a fire retardant so they won't blow up or catch fire.

 

 

[onetrack]

Facthunter, Boeing managed to cure their Li-Ion battery problems with the Dreamliner, via a redesigned battery case, and improved battery QC from Yuasa.

 

So heat containment design for battery locations is certainly a necessity for safe flight - but it's not an impossible order.

 

You could also say that Avgas and Jet A-1 is a very major fire risk, but it's pretty well managed in every aircraft design.

 

 

[facthunter]

 The risk with fuel is more obvious. It usually has to spill,  although a 747 exploded in flight near New York due overheating in a near empty tank.

 

 The Japan Air Lines 787 fleet was grounded for quite a while. Batteries have temp monitors but I don't know what you do if they start a meltdown. One wide body I flew had in flight access to the Varley Batteries  below floor, from the cockpit. Later types are probably more critical. Nev

 

 

[NT5224]

Folks

 

 I appreciate the considered advice has gone into this thread, and that it re-emerged from the abyss of climate change standoffs.

 

I never miss an opportunity to stick it to the Northern Territory Governments. Whether from Labour or Liberal,  in recent years they have been the worst bunch of self serving, incompetent buffoons  and have driven our Territory into the ground.    

 

But related to  this thread, how many of you knew that the Territory Government  announced it was hosting a 1919-2019 Centenary international air race, London to Darwin, utilising entirely electric and alternative energy source aircraft? Great idea. It would have been an amazing test bed  for the efficiency and reliability of clean aviation, and put the Territory back centre-stage in  global aviation and innovation. Like an aviation version of the popular Darwin to Adelaide Solar Challenge.

 

Heres the background:

 

https://www.katherinetimes.com.au/story/5303731/darwin-to-host-world-first-air-race-in-2019/

 

But then they stuffed it up. incompetence, mismanagement, and inability to sort out simple logistics. Typical for Territory Government. Heres the story:

 

https://australianaviation.com.au/2019/04/great-air-race-2019-cancelled/

 

So,  what do our political betters give us as an alternative to  celebrate the centenary of this landmark aviation event that paved the way to a global aviation industry? Kiddies chucking paper aeroplanes!

 

http://www.ntmajorevents.com.au/news/ntmec-secures-guinness-world-record-in-honour-of-great-air-race/

 

And that is apparently the best we can  do 100 years after the first brave aviators touched down in Fanny bay.  So much for progress and innovation!

 

Rant over

 

Alan  

 

 

[kgwilson]

What else do you expect from incompetents who sold your major port to the Chinese.

 

 

[NT5224]

What else do you expect from incompetents who sold your major port to the Chinese.

 

EXACTLY!

 

I see one of the main blokes who brokered the deal quite regularly when I head into Darwin. Immediately after the deal went public and attracted criticism, the gang of  fat cat public servants involved  all went to ground. Old mate I see around town retired on  big payout with a fat cat pension and now spends his days towing an humongous top spec motor cruiser behind his brand new  top spec 4WD visiting the best fishing spots.  Conspicuous consumption? Other people involved in the deal  melted away only to  re-emerge in lucrative positions lobbying on behalf of the Chinese corporation behind the deal. 

 

 The $500 million from the sale of such a strategic national asset has now apparently been absorbed into general government accounts (i.e. our $6 billion  public debt) so except for old mates fancy boat, Australia has absolutely no benefit  to show for the deal...  What a national disaster!

 

Anyway, back on topic. The failure of the London-Darwin  2019 AirRace, intended  to showcase alternative energy powered aircraft,  was a failure for some very simple reasons, mostly basic competency on the part of bureaucrats. Its really tragic as it would have been a much better investment  than most of the stuff we throw money away on.

 

Alan 

 

 

[facthunter]

 It's leased but it still seems strange. Whoever buys anything will put a margin for profit on it and run it down if there's not a maintenance clause enforced. Neocons don't want  anything to be owned by the public. Sell the Commonwealth Bank to the people who already owned it really.. Same with medicare. Nev.

 

 

[Keith Page]

I don't know how accurate this, from an article about boat engines, is Petrol engine 4-stroke inboard or outboard 100 HP: 30-38 liters / hour or 34 liters / hour on average. Mémotechnic: petrol engine consumption = 1/3rd of the power, but it sounds reasonable. Some expert here will correct my assumption.

 

So, the boats we see on trailers in front yards, and on coastal highways during the holidays cost about as much as a two-seater puddle jumper that we fly. They use about the same amount of fuel as our planes. So why should owner/pilots be singled out as environmental rapists?

 

A rule of thumb for cruising.. 1/5 Lt per HP per hour.. That is a mental arithmetic equation.

 

Yes there engines either side of that however a good guide of fuel usage.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

There was a report of Lithium Sulphur batteries which were supposed to be 4 times as energy-dense and much cheaper to make.

 

Does anybody know any more?

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

My old Libelle consumes 3kW on the glide.  At 80% prop efficiency and 80% electric efficiency, it would maintain height on about 5 kW battery power.

 

 

[kgwilson]

There was a report of Lithium Sulphur batteries which were supposed to be 4 times as energy-dense and much cheaper to make.

 

Does anybody know any more?

Lithium Sulphur batteries have been around for about 60 years but Monash University has come up with an improved version that is apparently capable of powering a mobile phone for up to 5 continuous days.

 

Latest report Here

[Old Koreelah]

...America now has the lowest level of R&D of any developed country, and the lowest level of tertiary-qualified people, per capita, overall....

A worrying trend, OT.

Decades of stupid policies have decimated America's standing as a technically innovating society.

Apple has been under pressure to move their factories out of China and build iPhones in the US, but it's not going to happen because the US just hasn't got the skilled workforce they need.

I've read that over half of America's PH.D. students are imports; cuts to immigration may deprive Universities of the world's best and brightest.

 

Bernie Sanders could turn that around with his policies to support innovation and education, but what hope has he against the moneyed elite?

[M61A1]

Immigration cuts are the least of their worries, the woke crowd in the US are claiming that Asians are over represented in uni selections (because they generally score higher) and are wanting forced diversity, overlooking ability and competence in favour of race and gender. We'll be going that way soon.

[danny_galaga]

If we reduced our use of resources to just 1% of what we use now it wouldn't matter. Population growth is not being addressed and the fact is one day we'll run out of room. Imagine 50 billion or 100 billion trying to eat, sleep, take a dump and stay alive on a planet that struggles with 7.5 billion.