Whats wrong with Boeing?! (New Mentour Pilot video)

[Garfly]

[Student Pilot]

The dog got my attention, some sort of poodle cross I think. I then settled down to watch what promised to be a very interesting presentation only to be bombarded with him advertising stuff. Stopped the vid at 1 minute, lost concentration and decided to look at kitten yootube.

Can you give me a short review Gazza?

[Garfly]

Hey Stude, that's not the only kitten-less U2b video I've tried to show you that you've snoozed off in.

(But don't worry, I've got a new one coming up that I know you'll love.) LOL

 

Anyway, this one is several years old now, but tells much of the same story, but with pictures, and it was made before everyone jumped on the "If it's Boeing, I'm not going" bandwagon. Enjoy! (puhleeeez!)

 

[skippydiesel]

Interesting, but unfortunately far from unusual.

Big business/bureaucracies (as organisational structures/entities pretty much one in the same) have been taking a well managed, high performing workforces, restructuring and demoralising them, for ever.

We live in an era where everything seems to be "farmed/contracted out", employees must reapply for their jobs at very frequent intervals, the restructure is an almost daily threat and little value is placed on quality workmanship & loyalty.

Management is no longer recognised/valued as a profession, instead technicians/academics with no solid management training/vocation/experience are promoted into positions of authority. These people, worthy though they may have been in their previous role, have little understanding of the needs/philosophy of management (excrement floats to the top).

"Esprit de corps" is not even understood let alone applied.

 

The following quote (possible falsely attributed) to Gaius Petronius Arbiter sums it up very well;

 

"We trained hard—but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams we were reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and what a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while actually producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.”

[facthunter]

It's all about corner cutting and killing off unions( Organised Labour.). Whistle blowers get sacked outsourcing from newly created entities that tender a low cost product back to the company. This started many years ago with Boeing and it eventually HAD to catch up with them and it has. It's a pity people have to lose jobs and even die before anything gets done. There's really no end I sight for this . The middle of the year for the MAX is another GUESS. The final damage bill, unknown. Nev

[onetrack]

Boeing is heading for technical bankruptcy. The only thing that is saving it at present, is its military supply contracts, which are a guaranteed, unending source of income.

But building nearly 500 aircraft that no-one really wants currently, and which will have to effectively be given away in the future, when they are re-certified, is the greatest mistake that Boeing has ever made in its corporate career.

On top of that, is the hidden cost, yet to come, of compensating those airlines such as South West, who have a fleet of new aircraft they cannot use. That cost will impose a massive burden on Boeing for years into the future.

 

The facts are these;

 

1. Boeing has always insisted the "cleared to fly" date of the 737MAX will be sooner than it really is. The current "estimation" is mid-2020. They will be hard-pressed to get the aircraft re-certified again by the end of this year.

2. The secondary and equally pressing problem is that the FAA has been rubber-stamping Boeings requests for years. Now, there is major pressure to ensure that the FAA again becomes an independent certifying body. This is not helping Boeing one bit.

3. There will be more serious delays to 737MAX being re-introduced to airline fleets as pilots will now have to undergo more training to be able to become fully qualified to fly the re-certified 737MAX.

4. The flying public is currently very wary of the 737MAX and serious numbers of people will still be wary of getting on one when it is re-certified. It's not helped by whistleblowers still coming out of the woodwork, producing horror stories of Boeings failures in QC, and failures in oversight of subcontractors.

5. The financial impact is more than just the hit on Boeing. The financial impact is going right down the line, to subcontractors, to airlines, to many other areas of the aviation industry. Those impacts will still be being felt in 2 to 3 years time.

6. Add in a meteorite hit from left field, in the form of a nasty, global pandemic, that is hitting airlines bottom line right at this very moment, and things are looking decidedly financially poor, for any airline operator or manufacturer.

7. Boeing has consistently downplayed the cost of the 737MAX debacle. First it was going to be $5B, then it was going to be $8B - now it's estimated to be $18B. The final figure could easily be double that.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/29/business/boeing-737-max-costs.html

Edited February 1, 2020 by onetrack

[Garfly]

Even more ahead of its time, an SBS report from 18 years ago:

 

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/dateline/tvepisode/a-wing-and-a-prayer

[kgwilson]

At that time in 2011 Boeings arrogance & the matey relationship with the FAA allowed them to completely ignore everything that was uncovered and continue to sack whistle blowers and their sympathisers & forge ahead with their culture of corporate greed and profit before safety. The Max was the disaster waiting to happen.

[Student Pilot]

Even more ahead of its time, an SBS report from 18 years ago:

 

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/dateline/tvepisode/a-wing-and-a-prayer

Have you noticed that white van parked up the road from you? Shortly it's occupants will be visiting with you to explain you need to modify your posts to a more Boeing friendly vibe

On a serious note, it shown Boeing have entrenched an immoral mindset, everything bartered for the cheapest price no matter what the consequences. Like most of America business, corruption, bullying, intimidation goes right to the top including their despotic political leader.

[Garfly]

Since that white-van has transformed into a flying machine, taken-off and departed (in a south-westerly direction ;-) it should be safe to post this recent Canadian report that gets to the human core of the criminality.

 

[skippydiesel]

....................................................................................

On a serious note, it shown Boeing have entrenched an immoral mindset, everything bartered for the cheapest price no matter what the consequences. Like most of America business, corruption, bullying, intimidation goes right to the top including their despotic political leader.

 

What makes you think this problem is limited to America? Just look at how our banks & polies behave - not an ethical bone cell between them.

 

The prevailing attitude is anything/everything goes and if you are caught its mea culpa all round. Until the dust settles and they are back feeding on your viscera again.

[Litespeed]

Corporate greed protected by the heavy hand of the police and government friends.

 

The video says it all in the answers he gave, the cop protecting him from grieving relatives. Lying and been allowed to just waffle about his upbringing, using his parents lessons as a shield from scrutiny. And it was allowed as a "indulgence" no one should ever get.

 

He was protected at a level a President would need or expect.

 

An example of the Devil in a suit who has captured government, law, police, military, and the rarely critical media in their pocket.

 

Police state from the other thread does not quite capture it. More like Capitalist Fascist state.

 

Appearances of Democracy are an illusion.

 

I have always felt Boeing as it is, is a dead duck, just they refuse too see it. But unless the next president is a democrat the chances are the corpse will live on the haunt us.

 

The company is a web of lies including its accounts, with the best creative accounts money can buy. It is most likely they are technically and legally bankrupt. But are just too big and ugly to fail. They are propped up completely by the military side, which they milk till it bleeds for money.

 

Try on the new fuel tankers they are making. From a $200 million aircraft for its Airbus equivalent and fully able to do variants to suit the US needs. Even was going to be built in America in partnership with a American firm. They won the contract worth billions, the inferior and expensive Boeing lost.

 

Boeing screamed and the tender and contact was cancelled. Then written to ensure only Boeing could win and price was no objection.

 

The new tanker is so badly built and designed, with simple and easy engineering changes to suit missions, making it unusable. The military have started to scream and refuse to certify them for use.

 

Cost per plane so far, that can't be used. $800 million and rising. For a damn flying fuel tank. The order is for hundreds. They continue to build them, even though they are building faulty aircraft and are yet to work out a design that works. Things like a simple wiring change and reroute costing billions of recoverable R and D from the government tit. Then a extra zero added to the bill, they are friends.

 

Makes the F35 seem cheap as chips and almost useful.

[snarf007]

Since that white-van has transformed into a flying machine, taken-off and departed (in a south-westerly direction ;-) it should be safe to post this recent Canadian report that gets to the human core of the criminality.

 

Good documentary, but disturbing to watch.

[Student Pilot]

What about the Royal Commission into the Banks Skip? With all the criminal activity, gouging and unethical behaviour exposed they are all held to account. Hang on.................nothing has happened. As you were ?

[Litespeed]

In a just world, which it is not. Its a Trumpian world.

 

Boeing, its execs, enablers are effectively corporate murderers and personally liable to manslaughter in hundreds of counts. They knew exactly the outcomes that are expected and kept going.

 

The people involved must face the sanction of law , as must the company. Its right to exist and operate in society should be removed. Just like a individual is jailed for life or given the death penalty for mass murder.

 

Boeing should be a complete loss to shareholders as they bet the market and take the risk. The non illegal or non culpable contractors get to stay. The dodgy finance banks that pay fast and loose and in on the deal get a total loss. So only real honest debts and proper compensation for the victims are involved as the new owners.

 

They restructure and the staff, and victims family with the deserving contractors/creditors own it.

 

Unless something like this happens the "Boeing" disease will power on.

 

Hundreds of people should be facing the full force of the law and possibly thousands some sanction.

 

If the FBI was given a full mandate to enforce justice and even if funded a $billion dollars- it would be a excellent investment. That is only a single useless tanker by the time it might hit the flight line. If it costs more- fine. Boeing and its execs are paying the bill.

[Litespeed]

Yep, work for a bank and commit millions of cases of fraud and no sanction.

 

Steal billions, No sanction.

 

Destroy thousands of lives and business, No sanction.

 

Distort and corrupt the financial markets, No sanction.

 

Thousands of bankers and tellers/ sales staff need criminal sanction.

 

As do the banks as a entity.

[starion81]

Boeing have absolutely lost the plot, they are an assembler, no longer a manufacturer, now a scabby probuct.

[skippydiesel]

Yep, work for a bank and commit millions of cases of fraud and no sanction.

 

Steal billions, No sanction.

 

Destroy thousands of lives and business, No sanction.

 

Distort and corrupt the financial markets, No sanction.

 

Thousands of bankers and tellers/ sales staff need criminal sanction.

 

As do the banks as a entity.

 

All true BUT big business, like big religion, & like politics, Government bureaucracies have always operated to a different code (rule of law, societal morality/ethics) and at the end of the day, do you put the whole "shebang" in jail ?

The Teller/Advisor/Local Bank Manager/Insurance broker/priest/etc are rarely the real problem (not saying they do not commit criminal acts) it's much further up the food chain.

The only way we could bring these groups to some level of reasonably ethical behaviour, is to make the top people criminally liable (real financial penalties, hitting their family fortune big time and lengthy jail sentences).

An organization's ethical/moral culture comes from the top - CEO's, Board of Directors, Cardinals/Bishops etc.

Who can do that? Only the politicians can change/implement the law in this way. Unfortunately the top flight politicians have a vested interest in not doing so, being somewhat short of the ethical mark themselves and all to often in bed with the entities we are wanting better regulated.

We (Australians) could do something - big demonstrations, bringing Cities to a grinding halt, even for an hour or two would certainly get the Politician's attention.

BUT

We are overwhelmingly, a wealthy/complacent/indolent middle class society, unwilling to get off our corpulent asses to actually hold our politicians to account (even at the ballot box) so why would our Pollies do anything meaningful in this area.

"Que sera sera"

[Methusala]

"Blind Freddy" can see that Aus is welded on to the US system Lock, Stock & Barrel. Fools who wont see that Morrison is the Trump disaster for Australia need re-educating. Who will perform this task? Not the excoriated ABC. No one else is on the horizon. Hold on to your hats Sheilas and Blokes, it's going to be a wild ride! Sorry, Don

[onetrack]

I really do wonder if Dennis Muilenberg ever had any real appreciation of the problems associated with the MCAS system? I personally don't think he ever did.

He's a classic example of a corporate favourite promoted to a level way beyond his abilities.

The corporate history of America is full of these people - people who have no understanding of what they are building, no understanding of their customers needs and requirements - and most importantly - no leadership ability, poor planning and decision-making abilities, and no ability to respond rapidly and efficiently with effective results, when disasters of any kind, strike their operations.

 

Muilenberg probably still believes he's the only one with the answers and the abilities to get Boeing out of trouble. The problem is, he doesn't realise he's the problem.

And the board has taken too long to come to the realisation that Muilenberg is the problem. Constant under-stating of Boeings problems, constant optimistic projections that are never met, constant re-assurances that the MCAS problem wasn't a design fault, it was a pilot training fault.

Deflection, deflection, and more deflection of responsibility. A classic of someone unable and unwilling to take responsibility for bad decisions made, and a lack of desire to fix those problems, because it might cost Boeing serious money.

 

But at the end of the day, because of those inherent and basic Boeing problems - from poor oversight of contractors, poor attention to QC, a poor company culture where loyalty to the corporate mantra took priority over attention to safety, poor attention to the ramifications of fault-riddled design, failure to properly and effectively address those design problems - this has all accumulated to ensure that Boeings corporate survival is at risk.

 

I would not be in the least surprised to see Boeing end up like GM, with a Govt bailout and major reconstruction.

The sad part is, GM in 1955 was the biggest, richest, and most powerful manufacturer on the face of the planet, with an astounding array of high-quality products. Check out GM's 1955 Powerama.

Yet, years of spineless corporate (lack of) leadership, led GM down the path that Boeing is now heading down.

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/12/24/business/boeing-dennis-muilenburg-mistakes/index.html

[Student Pilot]

You could hardly say the ex CEO wasn't a success when he retired with a 65 million dollar pay out and a $225,000 US a month pension

[kgwilson]

The American institution of Managers rising to become CEO "AND" Chairman of the Board smells like corporate corruption. IMHO the Board should be completely independent of the company's operations. In effect the CEO is the Boards sole employee and has to answer to the Board for the operational performance of the company. Almost 50 years ago our company's Chief internal Auditor was always stressing an "adequate division of duties" to reduce the possibility of corrupt practices, fraud etc. Where the CEO and Chairman are one and the same as is the case in many American companies it is easy to see that this process is severely weakened.

 

Now with Muilenberg gone, originally as Chairman and latterly as CEO, guess who is now CEO, Calhoun the existing Chairman. Boeing separated the roles in October when Mulenberg was stripped of his chairmanship & Calhoun took over. Now with Muilenberg gone Boeing is back to its old ways.

 

Boeing "Too big to Fail" like GM will get bailed out but any trust is gone & the benefactor can only be Airbus.

[DenisPC9]

I had experience in their "business dealings" here in Australia around a decade ago.

 

The small Melbourne Software company that I worked for was doing a Tender to supply a Command Support System for the ADF. This was going to run the ADF Aviation Missions, Operations, Hours, Currencies, Recencies and a number of other events as well.

 

We heard through back door sources that Boeing was installing a similar but greatly scaled down piece of their own Software at RAAF Williamtown for the Hornet Conversions Courses. They were approached through Industry channels to stop their implementation because this was already within the Tender process under Air whatever number Program. And that their product wasn't DRN/DSN certified.

 

In effect they told us to bugger off because they were Boeing. So we sent a high level team to Defence Canberra. Boeing were told to remove their software.

 

But it had to come from the highest levels of Defence. We also experienced mid to upper levels of contracted out and PS IT structure that were very sympathetic to the Boeing venture, even though Defence were (naturally) committed to the Commonwealth and ADF Tendering and Contract process.

[440032]

Student Pilot.

Could you please post a link to that kitten video.?

[Student Pilot]