red750 Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 The Herald-Sun names the other person in the Travel Air as Peninsula Aero Club CFI Pete Phillips.
Yenn Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 I read that both planes were doing IFR training. That means only one pair of eyes available in each plane for see and avoid. Neither of those planes have what you would call really good visibility. Plus an instructor would have been watching the student as well. Did this occur in a danger area for flying training? Maybe the recordings of radio traffic could throw some light on why it happened.
onetrack Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 (edited) Soar Aviation CFI Chris Gobel has been named as another one of the crash victims. Incredibly, Chris lost his son Anthony in another air crash in 2005, the crash that killed co-pilot Derek Mostyn, and cattle baron Peter Menegazzo and his wife Angela. https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/703 https://www.bendigoadvertiser.com.au/story/665412/another-bendigo-aviator-laid-to-rest/ https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/fly-ido-young-pilot-remembered-after-two-planes-crash-killing-four-20200220-p542ld.html Edited February 20, 2020 by onetrack
turboplanner Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 I read that both planes were doing IFR training. That means only one pair of eyes available in each plane for see and avoid. Neither of those planes have what you would call really good visibility. Plus an instructor would have been watching the student as well. Did this occur in a danger area for flying training? Maybe the recordings of radio traffic could throw some light on why it happened. It is a popular field, used to be the Alternate for Essendon in the DC6B days and can be busy with training or a peaceful place for a break. I arrived at the same time as a Focker Friendship doing IFR training many years ago, and learnt an important lesson about orientating yourself before you arrive, but although it is used a lot for IFR training I wouldn't call it dangerous. After all, you may come across an inbound or outbound IFR flight at any field in Australia, maybe not every month, maybe not every year, but it's not an issue if you are flying VFR and following correct approach/circuit/departure procedures and correct radio procedures. GA debaters seem to have narrowed it down to several different scenarios, but as I mentioned earlier IFR is a lot more complex than our flying and a lot of other factors are involved, along with Airservices and aids being involved, so I think a lot of recorded data has to be considered before we'll know. 1
KRviator Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 There was also the mid-air near Bankstown around a decade ago, HERE's the report for that one... 1
skydog Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 One of the instructors who perished is a legend here in YBDG. Chris Gobel ran a flight training school here for well over 25 years and very well known, respected and liked. He trained hundreds of pilots many going on to commercial airlines and is held in very high regard by CASA as an advanced instructor. He will be sadly missed by many and remembered this Friday night meeting at the clubhouse.
skydog Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 I think one of the A/C was flying IFR, one might think that CENTAR could have been involved with an imminent collision warning call or TCAS or ADSB visible to the IFR pilots however since one aircraft had only just taken off I suspect that it was only just appearing on radar. Not blaming, just timing issue. The facts will come out, cloud etc 2
Guest Machtuk Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 I knew Chris, that family has suffered much. RIP? I've done much training in and around YMNG many years ago, it's a crazy place these days!
facthunter Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 That's terrible news. All highly qualified and experienced. I've known Chris for years and met the CFI from Tyabb. Devastating for many who knew them and their students.. Nev
turboplanner Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 One of the instructors who perished is a legend here in YBDG. Chris Gobel ran a flight training school here for well over 25 years and very well known, respected and liked. He trained hundreds of pilots many going on to commercial airlines and is held in very high regard by CASA as an advanced instructor. He will be sadly missed by many and remembered this Friday night meeting at the clubhouse. Same goes for the CFI at Tyabb; hence me being cautious about any obvious cause.
turboplanner Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 Been a few more than we remembered; this from today's Melbourne Age: "20 mid-air collisions in Australia since 2000" 1
KRviator Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 Been a few more than we remembered; this from today's Melbourne Age: "20 mid-air collisions in Australia since 2000"Do they give a list or source for their info? I wouldn't have thought it'd be anywhere near that high a figure.... 1
turboplanner Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 Do they give a list or source for their info? I wouldn't have thought it'd be anywhere near that high a figure.... No, just a line. You could search "collision" on ATSB and extract the non-relevant ones.
Love to fly Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 Soar Aviation CFI Chris Gobel has been named as another one of the crash victims. Don't think this is quite right. Sadly Chris Govel is one of the victims. But don't think he was (ever) CFI of Soar Aviation.
onetrack Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 LtF - I was only going on the information provided on the website below. It may be out of date. https://www.myskills.gov.au/RegisteredTrainers/Details?rtocode=22488
onetrack Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 CASA wrote up a report on MAC's in Australia in May 2004. The study was based on the timeline 1961 to 2003. It appears no other CASA study on MAC's in Australia has been done since 2004. Note that 78% of the recorded MAC's, occurred "in or near the circuit area". https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/36828/Review_of_midair_col.pdf
dsam Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 Terribly sad incident. Condolences to the families of the deceased. Answers must be found, and lessons learned.
facthunter Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 Reports of near misses are also useful in assessing probability/risk. and where procedural breaches reduced specified separation minimums. Nev 1
Bruce Tuncks Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 This sort of collision could be eliminated if aircraft had glider-type flarms. These cost about $700 and they use a gps plus a low-powered radio to talk to each other and sound an alarm if the little computer decides there is any possibility of a collision. ( They use an array of lights to indicate where the other aircraft is.) They often go off if you fly in company with other gliders and they sure keep your head turning. On one occasion, I was alone and near a 4000 ft cloudbase when the flarm went off and sure enough, another glider was going the other way. The concentrating factor was the line of cloud. ( In fact we would have missed, but I would never have been aware of the potential midair without the flarm) My guess as to why flarms are not used for GA is that there would not be much profit in it for the "safety" bureaucracy. Gosh, it empowers pilots and not the officials. But also my guess is that a certified version of the flarm would be $50,000 or so. It costs millions to certify something apparently. At Gawler, all the tugs and gliders have flarms, and hardly any of the planes. 2 1
Guest Machtuk Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 Whilst I concur with your thoughts there a negative to that type of system is that it would get used as a substitute for a good look out at all times. Technology is a great thing but we humans tend to over rely on it. Plenty of CFIT accidents solely based on over reliance!
giantkingsquid Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 Yeah, but if you're in IMC, as the speculation is saying with this incident, looking out the window won't achieve much. 2 1
Yenn Posted February 21, 2020 Posted February 21, 2020 Were either of them flying IFR or even in IFR conditions. It is possible for instrument flying to be practiced with an instructor, without ATC knowing about it. If they were flying IFR then control should have been aware of them and the collision possibility. I wonder what their transponders were set to. One of them may and probably was set to 1200, which is VFR. I don't think it will take ATSB long to come up with a pretty good idea of what happened.
Garfly Posted February 21, 2020 Posted February 21, 2020 I never met Ido Segev, yet I feel that I knew him well having watched many Foxbat Australia videos in recent years. This is an unspeakable loss for all those who were close to him; for Peter Harlow and Mike Rudd, to start with. By all accounts, to know him was to love him; a sentiment borne out by Mike's films. 6
IanR Posted February 21, 2020 Posted February 21, 2020 I only met Ido last month and went for a fly with him. He seemed a very nice guy and his enthusiasm for all things aviation was infectious 1
turboplanner Posted February 21, 2020 Posted February 21, 2020 Were either of them flying IFR or even in IFR conditions. It is possible for instrument flying to be practiced with an instructor, without ATC knowing about it. If they were flying IFR then control should have been aware of them and the collision possibility. I wonder what their transponders were set to. One of them may and probably was set to 1200, which is VFR. I don't think it will take ATSB long to come up with a pretty good idea of what happened. Both were flying IFR flight plans Centre could possibly be involved in this and you're right ATSB will pull all the data together and sort it out. 1
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