Mangalore incident today (19/2/2020)

[turboplanner]

Reading all these posts just reinforces my decision not to fly without a BRS, or Parachute.......

That wouldn't help you if you started playing around with Night VFR or IMC - smacking into a hill or unlighted tower is a common result.

However, there's no need to get depressed about it, you will not be flying Night VFR or IFR in your RA aircraft, so that takes out what this accident is about (collision in IMC).

[kgwilson]

Personally I think a BRS is only really useful if you have an in flight structural failure. You will still crash at a high descent rate under the canopy and you have little control over where you will end up. When it's windy that's another curve ball to consider. I'd sooner trim for best glide & pick a landing site. Even in Tiger country you may be able to find a river flat or gully. There have been plenty of successful tree landings too, though most are not. I've landed in a tree though I have to say that it was in my Hang Glider & I just flared into it, grabbed it & hung on.

[jackc]

Personally I think a BRS is only really useful if you have an in flight structural failure. You will still crash at a high descent rate under the canopy and you have little control over where you will end up. When it's windy that's another curve ball to consider. I'd sooner trim for best glide & pick a landing site. Even in Tiger country you may be able to find a river flat or gully. There have been plenty of successful tree landings too, though most are not. I've landed in a tree though I have to say that it was in my Hang Glider & I just flared into it, grabbed it & hung on.

 

Or you suffer a medical event? My biggest worry......

[jackc]

That's up to you. It's not the answer in every situation. Just don't make it compulsory. and it wouldn't have saved anyone in the Mt Erebus situation. Ie off track and hit a hill in no vis. ie white out. Nev

 

I agree, make it a personal choice only. BRS is not a perfect choice, but I believe IF it can increase survival chances in an incident then I personally, will happily pay the price. Besides, my wife won’t let me fly unless the aircraft is equipped with one. And finally, I have approval to buy my own aircraft if it has a BRS fitted! What’s not to like:-)

[kgwilson]

, I have approval to buy my own aircraft if it has a BRS fitted! What’s not to like:-)

Absolutely nothing! Buy it now before she changes her mind.

[jackc]

Absolutely nothing! Buy it now before she changes her mind.

 

I am worth more to her alive! Not enough insurance money for her to want me dead:-) So far......

[turboplanner]

I agree, make it a personal choice only. BRS is not a perfect choice, but I believe IF it can increase survival chances in an incident then I personally, will happily pay the price. Besides, my wife won’t let me fly unless the aircraft is equipped with one. And finally, I have approval to buy my own aircraft if it has a BRS fitted! What’s not to like:-)

You should have said that first! Of course you have to buy one!

[Mike Borgelt]

The Private Certificate in the US includes night training. You don't get to fly at night without training. When you fly at night is a judgement call. I'd use it to fly in nice weather a little later than otherwise so maybe you arrive a little later than last light but no big deal. You might well be able to see the lights of your destination or towns along the way when last light happens. Besides it's pretty and on hot summer's days the turbulence would be gone. I wouldn't launch on a pitch black night, no moon, into iffy weather.

Interesting to see the Australian attitude on display here. Always got to put more/more severe/more training requirements on anything, compared to the country where by far most of private GA is done. No wonder CASA is like it is.

[turboplanner]

Interesting to see the Australian attitude on display here. Always got to put more/more severe/more training requirements on anything, compared to the country where by far most of private GA is done. No wonder CASA is like it is.

In Australia, and in GA you are authorised to fly NVFR if you have been trained, and with a NVFR endorsement.

The endorsement has been available for decades, and as far as I know, hasn't changed.

It's not something you decide to have a stab at on a balmy night; there's planning involved.

A typical example is leaving before true first light; you may have good references around the airport when you take off, but then it all goes blaclk. There are several reports of early morning crashes flying out of Roma; this one, involving a 6,000 hour pilot is a good example: Investigation: AO-2013-057 - VFR flight into dark night conditions and loss of control involving Cessna T210N, VH-MEQ, 2 km north-west of Roma Airport, Qld on 25 March 2013

[facthunter]

The USA has 14 times the population we have here in a country the same area. In some areas there are lights everywhere... PIFR is far more sensible here. Anyone who can't fly capably by instruments won't last very long at night. The dark black hole as you leave the runway lights behind you or a fog patch you didn't see till you are in it will test your skills. The point of light that dances all over your windscreen too.. I don't think it's a matter of Australian attitudes wanting more and more training. The statistics tell it all, and many take others with them. One consistent issue is arriving after last light .. it's always recommended to get there at with at least 30 minutes to spare. En route forced landings at night don't bear much thinking about either. Your landing lights will show about enough to say one word or so. as you find out what you are landing on. Nev

[kaz3g]

Far from allowing pilots to go to sleep, the flarm system makes you look out like never before.

And yes, Turbs is right in that there will one day be an authorized system to do the same thing at a much higher price. In the meantime, I can only agree that it was a sad day and send all my sympathy to the families of the deceased.

 

This is a modestly-priced collision avoidance display

 

 

Ping is another.

Edited February 23, 2020 by kaz3g

[kaz3g]

Air Avionics ATD-57 AIR Traffic Display is a relatively cheap collision avoidance system. Ping is another.

[Mike Gearon]

Your landing lights will show about enough to say one word or so. as you find out what you are landing on. Nev

I was told it’s best to leave them off for that reason. Only solution I could think of was to follow a car in if lucky enough to have a straight bit of road and a car some suitable distance ahead.

[Jaba-who]

Personally I think a BRS is only really useful if you have an in flight structural failure. You will still crash at a high descent rate under the canopy and you have little control over where you will end up. When it's windy that's another curve ball to consider. I'd sooner trim for best glide & pick a landing site. Even in Tiger country you may be able to find a river flat or gully. There have been plenty of successful tree landings too, though most are not. I've landed in a tree though I have to say that it was in my Hang Glider & I just flared into it, grabbed it & hung on.

 

I suspect this argument is a furphy though I may be wrong as I don’t have the stats.

The kind of justification that we hear every time for not advancing with all new technologies.” Doesn’t cure EVERY problem” or “has some rare risk” therefore should not add it to our equipment list.

 

Anyone have any actual stats on “crash landings” under canopy that have a really actually landed in a place where some badness happened because there was no control of direction or landed in a place that caused a problem?

 

the way I look at it the overall true risks and benefits Have to be bundled together. We shouldn’t exclude something based on a perceived problem if the facts don’t support it. All technologies will have pros and cons. Got to balance them behind making a decision to not include it as an option

[turboplanner]

For those interested in following the ATSB investigation on this accident, here's the link to the Investigation Number: Investigation: AO-2020-012 - Mid-air collision involving Piper PA-44-180 Seminole, VH-JQF, and Beech D95A Travel Air, VH-AEM, near Mangalore, Victoria, on 19 February 2020

[Yenn]

Jaba who. I have posted before somewhere on this site about one of the early Cirrus recovery schute landings.

The plane came down in a dam and the wheels of course hardly slowed the descent when they hit the water, then the whole underside of the plane hit the water and stopped dead.

Result the pilot had severe spinal compression injuries. That would not have happened if the wheels had hit hard earth and started the crumpling of undercarriage and wings.

[Jaba-who]

Jaba who. I have posted before somewhere on this site about one of the early Cirrus recovery schute landings.

The plane came down in a dam and the wheels of course hardly slowed the descent when they hit the water, then the whole underside of the plane hit the water and stopped dead.

Result the pilot had severe spinal compression injuries. That would not have happened if the wheels had hit hard earth and started the crumpling of undercarriage and wings.

Ok That’s one.

Though my first thought is there must have been something else other than just the explanation given involved.

There’s been several water “ landings” that I’m aware of ( including the one videod from both inside and outside the aircraft near Hawaii ) where the impact was quite benign.

Any other factors that could explain the discrepancy of outcome?

[facthunter]

Getting dragged by the chute in wind has happened a few times on water and on land. Nev

[turboplanner]

Plus all the successful arrivals.

Easy enough to go to the NTSB database.

Relevant to this collision because four lives may have been saved.

[facthunter]

"May" is the word. The mid air impact may have been /probably was significant. .. Enough structural damage may also make the chute ineffective. I have no doubt chutes can save lives but are not effective in all situations and present hazards to rescuers of crashed planes. ALL aspects should be considered in any debate/ assessment. Nev

[turboplanner]

"May" is the word. The mid air impact may have been /probably was significant. .. Enough structural damage may also make the chute ineffective. I have no doubt chutes can save lives but are not effective in all situations and present hazards to rescuers of crashed planes. ALL aspects should be considered in any debate/ assessment. Nev

May will do me.

As far as hazards to rescuers are concerned, it's time someone came out and explained what to do to neutralise the risk.

Airbags in cars are activated by ammonium nitrate, the car bomb explosive beloved by terrorists, but the Manual usually tells you to disconnect the battery when working around them.

Anyone know whether neutralising a ballistic chute is the same?

[M61A1]

Anyone know whether neutralising a ballistic chute is the same?

To my knowledge they are percussion activated, using a sear and striker similar to an ejection seat. There are various types. Some use a rocket, some CO2, a drogue gun type and spring powered.

[Old Koreelah]

My BRS is activated by pulling on a handle (12kg pull, from memory). This cable activates a pair of strikers onto primers similar to shotgun cartridges. One yank is all you get; at least one of the strikers should fire the rocket, which burns rubber disks.

 

Rescuers should simply cut the cable; replacing the safety pin may not be enough if structural damage has allowed tension to be put on the cable.

[Love to fly]

Below from AvPlans website. Be great if OzR shared their data because then you would also get the OzR non ADSB out aircraft showing up.

 

AvPlan Live has had a major update – we’re now feeding in live ADSB traffic and glider traffic from a network of ground based ADSB receivers. AvPlan EFB users with AvPlan Live enabled (Settings, AvPlan Live Tracking) will see traffic from these systems as well as other AvPlan EFB equipped aircraft.

Turn on the display of traffic on the map page by tapping Map Settings, Traffic. Traffic positions update every 5 seconds when your device has a good GPS lock.

We send all targets visible to our network within 150 nm of your aircraft and within 15000ft of your altitude.

ADSB Live Traffic works well when combined with your own ADSB-in device in your aircraft. AvPlan EFB supports almost all commercially available ADSB-in devices and these can be used with all AvPlan EFB subscriptions at no extra charge.

 

 

Help us expand the reach of our ADSB network by hosting an ADSB feeder. These small devices need to be connected to an internet connection and use a small amount of network bandwidth and power. They need to be installed in a location with a good view of the sky.

Enter your details below and we will be in contact to organise your ADSB feeder. Feeder locations will be chosen to best expand the existing network into regional areas.

[Old Koreelah]

Air Avionics ATD-57 AIR Traffic Display is a relatively cheap collision avoidance system. Ping is another.

This needs its own thread, where tech numpties like me can ask dumb questions.