Mangalore incident today (19/2/2020)

[Old Koreelah]

RoD is one thing but your forward speed comes into it as well. At least a spin will be at a certain forward speed and RoD that is predictable and known for a particular type and would be a preferred option to a spiral where the speed could be off the clock.. A near stall, power off glide would be close to the same RoD but probably slightly better and can be into wind. Flying at stall, or slightly below is possible but will be a worse L/D so have a higher sink rate. and risk loss of control.Nev

 

My aircraft has a tendency to drop a wing and my feet are not fast enough to catch it, so I'd rather avoid that airspeed.

 

However I love side slipping to wash off excess height, but the aeroplane gets very out of shape.

What's the worst that can happen if I keep above stall in a side slip?

[M61A1]

their seats are designed to absorb 20+ G impact forces,

I think that depends on whether the seats a designed to withstand 20G or absorb 20G. Big difference...

I see many helicopter seats that designed to absorb the load making the vertical impact more survivable.

I'm fairly sure there are some design criteria for this on a certified aircraft. You could reasonably assume that all bets are off in regards to seat survivability on experimental aircraft.

[Thruster88]

A quick re read shows a bit of thread drift at the end. The final report is out

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2020/aair/ao-2020-012/

 

I was wondering if the fact that neither aircraft had ADS-B in (traffic on a screen), the important bit, would be mentioned. It was

 

While the pilots were responsible for self-separation within the Mangalore CTAF area, they did not have access to radar or automatic dependent surveillance broadcast (ADS-B) information. As a result, the pilots were required to make timely decisions to avoid a collision without the best available information.

 

And.

 

The ATSB also strongly encourages the fitment of ADS‑B transmitting, receiving and display devices as they significantly assist the identification and avoidance of conflicting traffic. The continuous positional information that ADS‑B provides can highlight a developing situation many minutes before it becomes hazardous – a significant improvement on both point‑in‑time radio traffic advice and ‘see‑and‑avoid’. The ATSB also notes that ADS‑B receivers, suitable for use on aircraft operating under both the instrument or visual flight rules, are currently available within Australia at low cost and can be used in aircraft without any additional regulatory approval or expense

 

[Flightrite]

The chances of colliding mid-air would be so remote it’s hard to believe this even happened. I still can’t believe CG is gone😞

such a tragic accident which shook up so many of us in those circles😞

Edited March 31, 2022 by Flightrite

[APenNameAndThatA]

Like Woody Allen said, I don’t mind dying I just don’t want to be there when it happens. I don’t have a parachute to save my life. I have a parachute so I don’t have to cope with sitting around while I plummet to the ground. One of those pilots worked for Peter at Foxbat Australia and was going to take over the business. 

[Thruster88]

Coroners findings have been released for the Mangalore mid air collision. 

https://www.coronerscourt.vic.gov.au/sites/default/files/Mangalore Aircraft Accident (LC COR 2020 000950) - Form 37 .pdf

 

His advice, get IN. 

[facthunter]

Stay VFR. WE are what we are.  Even in fully CONTROLLED airspace people break the rules. Not referring to the Mangalore incident  but class"G" in IMC is a crock of worms. Separation by altitude is the best IF your altimetry is  right and you are communicating  Good radio Procedures  Check and "Confirm" if you are not sure. Nev

[BurnieM]

It is a bit weird that CASA seems to be arguing against ADS-B IN for IFR aircraft.

 

Yes, I know that the industry is pushing CASA on everything that increases their costs but ADS-B IN seems to be a no brainer.

 

Edited August 3 by BurnieM

[facthunter]

TCAS is a better system.  It advises what action to take. .  U/L's ?  Don't fly in cloud, or too close to it vertically when near airports.  Nev

[Garfly]

 

While TCAS may be better, the cost of those systems makes it impractical for small aircraft - even for commercial IFR operators, let alone recreational types.

 

A few years back the  charter industry was squealing about being forced to put in ADS-B OUT gear - a far cheaper option than full TCAS.

 

Yet, with the current rebate program even recreational types can get, let's say, 75% of the TCAS safety function for, what?, 5% of the cost. (By carrying approved  EC  IN/OUT devices.)

 

In their own Mangalore report, the ATSB opined that had either or both aircraft carried even such basic ADSB IN/OUT gear then it might all have been avoided.

 

Also, the Coroner's Recommendation # 1 has something to say on the issue of "Departure Calls" which have been discussed here recently in other threads.

 

 

 

From the CORONIAL INQUIRY INTO THE MANGALORE AIRCRAFT ACCIDENT

 

 

 

Recommendation 1: I recommend that CASA develop and disseminate educational material for the aviation industry aimed at reinforcing the importance of accurate departure calls being made by pilots in command of aircraft. It is a matter for CASA to determine the process by which the educational material is disseminated to the aviation industry.

Recommendation 2: Airservices, in anticipation of harmonisation of operating requirements for Brisbane ATSC and Melbourne ATSC, provide additional training to ATCs on managing and responding to STCAs within 5 nautical miles of aerodromes with similar aircraft movements to Mangalore.

Recommendation 3: 80 Airservices should consider providing additional training to current and prospective Air Traffic Controllers on the use of velocity vectors in Class G airspace. It is a matter for Airservices to determine how this training is developed and facilitated.

Recommendation 4: I recommend that the ATSB, AMSA and CASA continue to work together to promote the voluntary update of ADS-B technology in Australian-registered aircraft. It is a matter for the ATSB, AMSA and CASA to determine how to best promote this initiative in the aviation industry.

Recommendation 5: I recommend that CASA conduct a cost-benefit study into the feasibility and potential benefits of requiring the installation of ADS-B IN devices in IFR-certified aircraft.

Recommendation 6: I recommend that the Minister for the Commonwealth Department of Infrastructure give consideration to expanding the ADS-B rebate program to extend to Australian registered IFR aircraft.

Edited August 3 by Garfly

[Thruster88]

The controller when passing traffic to the inbound aircraft basically gave them the same information they would have received in a departure call from the other aircraft. "Traffic is xxx a xxxxxxxxx departing mangalore for xxxxxxx via LACEY. 

 

Going to LACEY way point ment their tracks would cross. It is a lot to remember were every way point is. 

[Deano747]

Is this the future?

Requires other aircraft to also be fitted with FLARM or have a transponder mode S or C.

Commonplace in Europe ........

 

https://store.swiftavionics.com.au/powerflarm-portable/

 

[Ironpot]

ADSB - in is great. You see everything that is suitably equipped out to 50 miles. I often get alerted by ATS to aircraft on reciprocal track “ … ABC is in your 12 o’clock 1000 above/below and will pass you in x minutes”

 

However, with all that technology, I’m amazed at the number of times I don’t see a kingair or aerocommander even when I know exactly where to look!

[facthunter]

It's important you get on the departure track by 5 NM. Nev

[onetrack]

Bob Tait says that 5NM departure track requirement is for IFR aircraft only, there's no specific instructions for VFR aircraft.

 

More interestingly, there's no specific requirement for departure calls for VFR aircraft in the AIP.

 

Departure radio calls

WWW.BOBTAIT.COM.AU

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Hi everyone, i seem to be gettjng a bit cobfused as ti when to make my departure call from a non controlled aerodrome. Say i am departing on an extended...

 

[facthunter]

Modify your departure call then In VFR.  With no flight plan lodged you can fly where you like but don't report somewhere when you are not there.    If you give a "departed ABC at (time) it's your current time minus  an allowance for the time taken to your present position. Nev

[Thruster88]

Departure call in a ctaf sould be part of the taxi call. No need for duplication. 

 

Cowra traffic RV kilo hotel alpha taxi for runway 33 departure to the north West cowra. 

Repeat departure direction if a rolling runway xxxx call is needed.

[Ironpot]

1 hour ago, facthunter said:

It's important you get on the departure track by 5 NM. Nev

Yep and that’s what he was attempting to do.

 

https://www.atsb.gov.au/sites/default/files/media/5781079/ao-2020-012-final-3.pdf

 

I have to admit that I still don’t know what I would have done differently had I been in the left hand seat of either of these two aircraft.  Maybe look to better understand the intentions of traffic. Where I fly we generally have RPTs to contend with but it’s just a case of listening out, let them know your intentions, and then allow them plenty of room/time. 
 

 

[facthunter]

Don't agree Thruster. Just because you gave a taxi call doesn't mean you even got in the air. Departure TIME has relevance to where you should be.   Nev

[Thruster88]

2 hours ago, facthunter said:

Don't agree Thruster. Just because you gave a taxi call doesn't mean you even got in the air. Departure TIME has relevance to where you should be.   Nev

That is true, more so in times past. While warming up on the ground if I heard an inbound call from the north west either pilot could initiate a conversation about separation. Traffic on a screen would allow one or both to see if any actual conflict might exist without talking on what might be a busy ctaf. The future awaits. 

[Garfly]

 

Yeah, it can be quite a while between chocks-away and taking-off, so our intentions might best be held back till later in the piece. That way, any significant others with some interest in our plans, are more likely to be inside the zone and listening in.

 

In the old days of VFR flight plans and full reporting, an actual time of departure was required by the system to start the clock on the schedule submitted.  But in our uncontrolled, NOSAR/NODETAILS world, I guess a (local) departure call just needs current position (or circuit leg) altitude (passing and on-climb) and track (or first waypoint).  As far as I can see, declaring an ATD (almost always 'this time' anyway) in a CTAF context is a vestige of other times/other systems.

 

Anyway, I'm not saying departure calls are even necessary; it depends. Which must be why law makers limit themselves (uncharacteristically) to 'recommendations' when it comes to comms at uncontrolled fields.  

 

 

 

 

Edited August 4 by Garfly

[facthunter]

Clutter  is a problem with increasing traffic density. It gets to the stage where you need full ATC control and a limited number of aircraft can be handled and everyone has to do what they should or it rapidly goes Pear shaped.  If your estimate is more that 2 mins out you have to amend it . In any case the actual departure time gives you the ETA  for your next waypoint.Nev

[Garfly]

Yes, for sure, an ATD is totally necessary for one's own log keeping. 

I just meant that if you're flying with no plan in the system it doesn't mean much to anyone else.

In which case, the only estimate that counts (for others) is the one we give inbound at 10 miles.

 

[facthunter]

Monitoring frequencies is still a part of good flight management and letting other's know you are near more active circuits is part of it. Realistically, No radio should be a thing of the Past except where you operate where others don't, AND very carefully.   Nev

Edited August 5 by facthunter
more content.

[Garfly]

No argument there.  I think we all agree.