read and watch this it is VERY interesting

[Old Koreelah]

YOU DON'T WANT THE TRUTH... Once you realize (and if you look with an open mind you WILL) that this was an inside job... you won't forget. I wish I didn't. It wasn't just GW Bush... What about the Australian Wheat Board. Anyone really believe our Government didn't know?

If the conspiracy theory is even half right, this might be the only successful plan of the GWB regime. Look at all their stuff-ups, from Sadaam's WMDs to the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

Is it so hard to accept that a bunch of foreigners, those evil medieval warlords, made such a well-co-ordinated and devastating attack?

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

.....Is it so hard to accept that a bunch of foreigners, those evil medieval warlords, made such a well-co-ordinated and devastating attack?

Not hard at all, particularly as it wasn't a difficult or complex plan, it was just brazen that's all. And even less difficult to accept if they were somehow assisted and encouraged and even provided with the plan, schedule and opportunity. Consider the widespread and very close personal and business ties that the Bush's had/have with the extensive Bin Laden family, regardless of its patriarch being the USA's public enemy number 1. Are you aware that every aircraft in the entire USA was grounded for two days following the 9/11 attacks? Nothing moved in the air at all. Oh, that's except the 50 or so private jets that flew dozens of Bin Laden family members out of the country just in case of reprisals...

 

But that's not even the point either, the whole discussion is about the fact that the attack wasn't what brought about the devastation, it's been demonstrated and calculated that the planes couldn't have done that damage. Buy the video and watch it... or PM me your mailing address and I'll send you one of the copies I bought, but I'd rather you spent $10 and support the movement that's hoping to raise enough to bring the real evil masterminds of this travesty, to justice.

 

Since you obviously agree that the Bush governments wrongly involved themselves in Iraq and Afghanistan, do you really think it was mere bumbling and bungling or is the ulterior motive of making indescribably large personal fortunes more likely? Especially as that was the actual outcome and there's no more assured way of making vast fortunes than by running a war - refer to the Dick Cheney and Haliburton comments above...

 

 

[turboplanner]

These theories may be correct for buildings of conventional construction, but the WTC buildings pushed new boundaries of skyscraper design. For example there was no lift design in the world that could handle that distance, and that problem was solved by designing three sequential pulls. A building this high of conventional design would crush the lower wall structure, so the buildings had to be lightened, and the Engineer came up with a bracketry floor design which also stabilized the vertical beams.

 

Calculations were in fact carried out for a simulated aircraft collision, but at the time of the design the much smaller Boeing 707 was only just coming into service, and no one could forsee the huge increase of the Jumbo in both weight and fuel capacity.

 

So when the fuel exploded something happened which no one had expected. The force deformed a floor or floors to the extent that the brackets rotated out, dropping the floor on to the next one whereupon a greatly increased weight dropped the lot to the next one. As the weight on each floor along with the momentum increased there would have been other forces in play which may have been noticed.

 

The design was known by Industry, so there would be industry drawings in existance, and there would be drawings held by planning authorities and suppliers.

 

So no secrets here - material should be available to anyone who gets a case of conspiracy fever and wants to investigate.

 

There were many digital videos taken of aircraft flying towards and hitting the towers. Not all of these could have been photoshopped.

 

If those aircraft were somewhere else, supposedly "proved" by someone's theory about transmission paths, then which two aircraft hit the towers?

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

These theories may be correct for buildings of conventional construction, but the WTC buildings pushed new boundaries of skyscraper design. For example there was no lift design in the world that could handle that distance, and that problem was solved by designing three sequential pulls. A building this high of conventional design would crush the lower wall structure, so the buildings had to be lightened, and the Engineer came up with a bracketry floor design which also stabilized the vertical beams.

Calculations were in fact carried out for a simulated aircraft collision, but at the time of the design the much smaller Boeing 707 was only just coming into service, and no one could forsee the huge increase of the Jumbo in both weight and fuel capacity.

 

So when the fuel exploded something happened which no one had expected. The force deformed a floor or floors to the extent that the brackets rotated out, dropping the floor on to the next one whereupon a greatly increased weight dropped the lot to the next one. As the weight on each floor along with the momentum increased there would have been other forces in play which may have been noticed.

 

The design was known by Industry, so there would be industry drawings in existance, and there would be drawings held by planning authorities and suppliers.

 

So no secrets here - material should be available to anyone who gets a case of conspiracy fever and wants to investigate.

 

There were many digital videos taken of aircraft flying towards and hitting the towers. Not all of these could have been photoshopped.

 

If those aircraft were somewhere else, supposedly "proved" by someone's theory about transmission paths, then which two aircraft hit the towers?

Sorry TP, you miss the point completely.

 

No disrespect but there's no point in having an opinion if you haven't seen the evidence. I think you must be basing your comments on the pilotsfor911truth site only whereas there are many sites in the series including one developed and endorsed by the most prominent Engineers and Architects on the planet, I provided a link to it early in this thread, here it is again - http://www.ae911truth.org/ The floors of the building were in freefall, nothing was falling and hitting something below, making it collapse and so on because whatever was below was already gone before whatever was above could hit it. That could only be the case if the floors below were blown away by something else. Demonstrating that is a simple matter of timing the rate of fall of matter from the top of the building. If there was anything below that the top half of the building was battering its way through, floor by floor, then it wouldn't be in freefall, it would be falling slower than 32ft/sec^2. And look at the pictures of the pulverised dust (not debris) as the building fell which is absolutely typical of the use of high explosive... I can't explain the whole thing here it would take hundreds of pages, as do the reports now being released by some of the world's most knowledgeable engineers.

 

Your comment "The design was known by Industry, so there would be industry drawings in existance, and there would be drawings held by planning authorities and suppliers" borders on naivete I'm afraid, of course there are drawings etc and they've been meticulously pored over by hundreds of the most highly respected forensic engineers on the planet. The reports run into the hundreds of tonnes of paperwork. It's not as if everyone just decided, oh well planes hit them, they fell down and left it at that. There are tens of thousands of angry people who want real answers and tens of thousands more still working to get those answers. The mighty huge 47 storey building 7 came down without ever being hit by a plane! Most people still think that only two towers came down but there were 12 buildings (IIRC) on the WTC site and only 5 left afterwards... and only two planes which crashed into two of them.

 

And the collapse of building 7 was announced by the BBC and CBN networks while it was still standing! Doesn't that seem just a little bit odd?

 

If this was an investigation into a plane crash where things 'just didn't seem right' and after eleven years of meticulous research by thousands of multi-disciplined experts, as their reports of the findings started to be released you'd want to be one of the first to know what really happened. Right? Isn't it strange then that so many seemingly knowledgeable people don't want to even hear/see what has been learned during eleven years of this post-crash investigation, and would rather stick to the first story they heard on the early breathless reports and believe that all that would ever be known must have been known by the excited junior scout reporters at the time?

 

The aefor911truth reports that I am referring to never suggested the planes didn't hit the buildings, just that it wasn't the planes that brought the buildings down. And if brackets had rotated when the fuel exploded (which is not in the investigative reports at all) then the buildings would have come down at the time, not much later.

 

I'm far from a conspiracy theorist also, and those who know me are very aware of how skeptical and suspicious I am and how I don't accept anything as fact until I've done my own research. I, too completely dismissed all this until I saw the evidence.

 

 

[Guernsey]

Facts and evidence are not necessary on this forum for some people to speculate, just a bit of hearsay will do the trick.

 

Alan.

 

 

[winsor68]

Calculations were in fact carried out for a simulated aircraft collision, but at the time of the design the much smaller Boeing 707 was only just coming into service, and no one could forsee the huge increase of the Jumbo in both weight and fuel capacity.

No Jumbos were involved TP. Beoing 767 and 707 are near identical in weights and fuel load...

 

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/boeing_707_767.html

 

 

[Methusala]

See The Big Lie in Wikipedia. This is the concept first put forward by Adolf Hitler in Mein Kampf (1925) about the use of a lie so "colossal" that no one would believe that someone "could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously."It was later taken up by Joseph Goebbels and the Nazis to turn long-standing anti-semitism into mass murder. The Big Lie was a narrative of an innocent, besieged Germany striking back at an "international Jewry", which it said started World War I.

 

The principle is that the bigger the lie the more likely it is that the people will accept it uncritically because the alternative is too fantastic to believe.

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

Excellent link 68, hadn't seen that one before and had no idea how so many of the involved stood to make millions if the towers collapsed while insured... rather than had to be deliberately demolished because of galvanic decay.

 

For others with open minds - ignore the 'What really happened' link right at the bottom of the page and follow the link just above it to some astounding new relevations of who stood to gain from the collapse - and the interesting news that the mayor Guiliano (sp?) was told that the towers were going to collapse well before they did so and even though they were never expected to because they were designed to withstand similar impacts and no steel building had ever collapsed before due to fire, interesting that three did so at WTC within minutes of each other...

 

Here's a link to that second page and there are four subsequent excellent links at the bottom of the page http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/9-11_wtc_videos.html

 

 

[Methusala]

The WTC had its steel structure clad in asbestos plaster to offer protection in the case of fire. This was seen as a huge liability in the (likely) event that they would need to be demolished. Just another factor in the case for unplanned for demolition. BTW the building 7 had the corporate office of the internal revenue (company tax) service as a major tennant.

 

 

[eightyknots]

I'm surprised how quickly a consipiracy theory gains momentum and assumes factoid status.

 

Next thing, someone will be dreaming up a conspiracy theory about the RA-Aus Board's and Executive's dealings......

 

.....

 

 

[cscotthendry]

I'm surprised how quickly a consipiracy theory gains momentum and assumes factoid status.

Next thing, someone will be dreaming up a conspiracy theory about the RA-Aus Board's and Executive's dealings......

 

.....

I wondered when that was going to come up. I can stop holding my breath now LOL!!

 

 

[turboplanner]

No disrespect but there's no point in having an opinion if you haven't seen the evidence.

Firstly, the thread was about the Pilotsfor911truth site and that's what I was addressing; I was also only addressing the collapse of the two towers 1WTC and 2WTC which the Engineer I referred to designed. I'm not addressing what happened to other buildings on the site.

 

I don't have an opinion, I was just speaking up for an honest engineer who I heard, personally, make an admission that he and his design were responsible for the collapse of 1WTC and 2WTC

 

Your comment "The design was known by Industry, so there would be industry drawings in existance, and there would be drawings held by planning authorities and suppliers" borders on naivete I'm afraid, of course there are drawings etc and they've been meticulously pored over by hundreds of the most highly respected forensic engineers on the planet.

Once again, the Engineer who designed the towers was speaking to camera and took the blame, outlining specific design faults. I chimed in on this one because I remember at the time feeling for the guy who was struggling with guilt, when in fact his design was responsible for the era it was designed in. It just didn't seem fair to me.

 

The aefor911truth reports that I am referring to never suggested the planes didn't hit the buildings, just that it wasn't the planes that brought the buildings down.

But the Pilotsfor911truth DID suggest that the aircraft did not hit the towers, arguing based on ground station data that the aircraft were not in New York at the time - something which should be addressed and pointed out.

 

And if brackets had rotated when the fuel exploded (which is not in the investigative reports at all) then the buildings would have come down at the time, not much later.

I watched the documentary a number of years ago but the gist of the argument was the size of the aircraft and the fuel. maybe they discussed the fire playing a part, however my memory is clear that the brackets were pulled of creating a chain reaction, and it was the bracket design that the engineer regretted using. I certainly was wrong about the 747 comparison, although I think it might have come up towards the end when other buildings were discussed and the point was made that no one at the time anticipated that in the future aircraft would have the weight and fuel load of a 747

 

 

[dazza 38]

Was GWB ever a member of the Bilderberg Group ?

 

Ps- The design of the WTC towers 1 & 2 were old school.Nobody uses steel I beams as support floors anymore. Well not in Australia & I am pretty sure in the USA they build High rise buildings like we do these days. IE - Form up the floors , columns etc using form board , Install re enforcing steel bars & then pour concrete. It is a lot stronger than the way buildings used to be built.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Wow! It seems that George W was far more intelligent than I could have imagined. His administration was able to bring together a massively complex scheme combining the talents of the best demolition people (using some new silent explosive) a large bunch of hate-filled religious nuts, firefighters and other officials. They were all co-ordinated into a complex series of actions (it normally takes Hollywood many takes over weeks to get it right). Even Operation Overlord had glitches. GWB makes Eisenhower look like an amateur organiser.

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

...... I was just speaking up for an honest engineer who I heard, personally, make an admission that he and his design were responsible for the collapse of 1WTC and 2WTC..... the Engineer who designed the towers was speaking to camera and took the blame.....

Thanks TP, yes I remember that doco and I think it was made very soon after the event and at a time when there was little other explanation for why the towers came down so the engineer pretty much had to believe that the structures failed because the design was flawed. It wasn't until the site was cleared and the records of the site clearance were being examined that the questions started being asked.

 

One of the more pertinent issues in the complete impossibility of it having been a floor by floor collapse was that, as you can imagine, if they collapsed that way and the collapse was completely into the footprint of the tower, then the steel would all be stacked (they call it 'pancaked') with one floor's steel upon another, all pretty much flat and not all that different from how it was when standing except that each layer wouldn't have three metres (10ft) of free space between them. But the steel wasn't like that at all, what steel was there was twisted and mangled exactly as it would be if subjected to high explosive charges...

 

Not only that but the steel tonnage collected from the site was very much less than the tonnage of steel originally used in the construction, so where did the rest go? Sure, some may have been usurped by the scrap merchants but the tonnage was measured as it left the site, not as it arrived at the scrap dealers. The experts state that the heat from the fire in the building following the crash might possibly have been high enough in a few isolated areas to warp the steel but not to melt it and certainly not vapourise it. Large pools of steel were found still molten days after the event. Apparently the thermite effect of high explosive is sufficient to vapourise steel...

 

As I understand it the research of many forensic engineers has now determined that the building design was not a factor in the collapse but the jury is still out in regard of what was.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

I doubt whether GWB would have had anything to do with it..it would have been the faceless men doing "policy" and of course all the black ops and spooks in the other agencies. The only thing GWB was good at was ducking a thrown shoe from a reporter

 

 

[turboplanner]

Interesting how the Democrat marketing strategy has worked so well on so many people.

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

Wow! It seems that George W was far more intelligent than I could have imagined. His administration was able to bring together a massively complex scheme combining the talents of the best demolition people (using some new silent explosive) a large bunch of hate-filled religious nuts, firefighters and other officials. They were all co-ordinated into a complex series of actions (it normally takes Hollywood many takes over weeks to get it right). Even Operation Overlord had glitches. GWB makes Eisenhower look like an amateur organiser.

I don't think GWB is relevant in the matter at all except as a puppet, his father was/is the mastermind. GWB being an incompetent was the greatest benefit that GB had. Bringing together those you mention is not a difficult matter when you consider the stakes on offer, and it was just an insurance fraud at the end of the day. The 'hate-filled religious nuts' that you refer to also happen to be one of the planet's wealthiest families, wealth built from cunning and guile, and close friends and business associates of the Bush family, regardless of the status of one of their number, Osama, as US public enemy no.1. The 'complex series of actions' is no more than what would be required for a hostile corporate take-over. It would appear that 9/11 had glitches too, it's almost certain that the timing was out, see the many docos/reports etc of W's action (or complete lack of it) at the primary school when he was informed of the event.

 

The 'silent explosive' wasn't silent at all,- refer to the numerous citizens', firefighters', medics', journos' reports of 'ear splitting' explosions coming from the basement and other areas below the impact points of the aircraft.

 

I already offered to send you the video so that you had an informed basis from which to comment.

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

Interesting how the Democrat marketing strategy has worked so well on so many people.

Quite possibly, and the Republican spin doctors too perhaps?

 

 

[turboplanner]

Well they don't work like that, but lets see:"

 

• The owners of the buildings decided they would have to come down, and like millions of other buildings they had asbestos in them, which these days is relatively inexpensive to remove - well within a cost which can be built in to the new buildings.
   
  
• They recruited George Bush Senior, a band of other well known crooks, and a Saudi who wanted to destroy the western way of living.
   
  
• George took on the job, and told GW to act like a fool and "don't tell no one"
   
  
• The team then recruited Rudi Giuliani who has an ego as tall as the buildings, thousands of police, and thousands of firemen, and told them their families would be short a few members, but hey there would be a lot of tickets to Honolulu given out.
   
  
• Fake aircraft were hologrammed into the sky, because everyone knows after Watergate that you can't be sure of the press. As we now know they were nowhere near New York when the explosions happened and it's Republican propaganda that they've never been seen since.
   
  
• Thousands of charges were laid, and kilometres of wiring were strung for the timed detonators all out of sight of the thousands of occupants of the buildings who were also given rewards, or threatened with losing their jobs if they didn't stay put.
   
  
• The people, eye witnesses, who escaped the building and gave accounts of the collapse were liars.
   
  
• And the people who were recorded jumping before the building collapse were just impatient extras who got their timing wrong.
   
  

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

Well they don't work like that, but lets see:"

• The owners of the buildings decided they would have to come down, and like millions of other buildings they had asbestos in them, which these days is relatively inexpensive to remove - well within a cost which can be built in to the new buildings.
   
  
• They recruited George Bush Senior, a band of other well known crooks, and a Saudi who wanted to destroy the western way of living.
   
  
• George took on the job, and told GW to act like a fool and "don't tell no one"
   
  
• The team then recruited Rudi Giuliani who has an ego as tall as the buildings, thousands of police, and thousands of firemen, and told them their families would be short a few members, but hey there would be a lot of tickets to Honolulu given out.
   
  
• Fake aircraft were hologrammed into the sky, because everyone knows after Watergate that you can't be sure of the press. As we now know they were nowhere near New York when the explosions happened and it's Republican propaganda that they've never been seen since.
   
  
• Thousands of charges were laid, and kilometres of wiring were strung for the timed detonators all out of sight of the thousands of occupants of the buildings who were also given rewards, or threatened with losing their jobs if they didn't stay put.
   
  
• The people, eye witnesses, who escaped the building and gave accounts of the collapse were liars.
   
  
• And the people who were recorded jumping before the building collapse were just impatient extras who got their timing wrong.
   
  

This is puerile. But since you want to continue commenting without addressing the evidence first -

 

• The buildings were intended to have a 200-300 yr life but galvanic corrosion (in this case it was metallurgic reaction between the galvanised structural steel and the aluminium architectural window panels) was so advanced that the buildings had a requirement for annual inspection and their life-to-expiry (demolition time) had been brought forward to min 30yrs, max 50yrs from date of commissioning (hand-over date). The shortened life had to do with the corrosion, not the asbestos. The asbestos is used for cladding the steel to achieve the required fire rating and is, itself, fully clad with other architectural product usually plasterboard or similar, so no asbestos is exposed or ever removed from high-rise buildings until they are demolished. No allowance for asbestos removal has ever been built into any building because as soon as the risks of asbestos were known they stopped using it.
   
  
• I don't know who you mean by 'they'.
   
  
• I guess you haven't seen any documentaries/films about W's rise to power as the governor of Texas, and subsequent move to the leadership of the Republican Party?
   
  
• Giuliani was informed that the buildings were going to collapse well before they did, and regardless of there being no expectation that they would collapse because no steel building had ever done so due to fire. Warped, twisted yes, collapse, no. Concrete buildings collapse due to fire - yes.
   
  
• Not my terms of reference
   
  
• Armed guards were placed outside each lift shaft in turn while the shafts were closed in rotation for more than nine months, supposedly so that the elevators could be upgraded. The name shown on the uniforms of the dozens of workers providing the upgrade has never existed as a Company or organisation and none of the workers have ever been traced although there are hundreds of sworn statements from people who used to work in the towers, that this took place. No evidence of any upgrade to the elevator cars or cable system has ever been found or mentioned by those who used the cars daily. No paperwork exists for this upgrade which would supposedly have cost millions. Why would armed guards be placed there? This nine month period would provide ample opportunity for laying the explosives.
   
  
• Your statement doesn't make sense, none of the eyewitnesses or anyone inside gave any account of the building collapsing floor by floor, once it started to come down it was down in seconds and there were no further survivors from inside, those outside saw what the numerous videos show, materiel in free-fall and not slowed at all by hitting any kind of resistance still standing below.
   
  
• Again, doesn't make sense, the only ones who started jumping were those who were trapped by fire above the impact site, they were being burned and couldn't go up because of the stairwells being blocked by others trying to descend and couldn't go down because of the fire.
   
  

 

Thanks for your thoughts TP and I'm not saying this whole event did take place the way the A&E site says it did but if you actually read and watch all of the evidence, which I have been doing for three years now, it's not only fascinating but it's also compelling and so it's hard to believe that it could be anything else, and I'm not gullible. I am commenting with knowledge of the subject, high-rise structural steel design is my business, a recent major contract was on the Hilton twin towers, Surfers Paradise, completed last year. And it's more interesting for me if I'm singing with someone who's on the same song-sheet, so no offence intended but I won't be responding further unless you furnish yourself with the facts that have been established by the investigation so far. Regards, Alan

 

 

[Methusala]

Turbo planner? has form on this site for ridiculing any proposition that doesn't fit his capsular view of the world. (Yes many people still read the Daily Telegraph and The Australian because it gives a conveniently simple and 2 dimensional view of events) Just watch their unrelenting war on the Gillard govt. Anybody REALLY believe any one can get it so wrong - and oh yes Tony Abbot is the answer. Many are uncomfortable with doubts re The New World Order.

 

 

[Guernsey]

Turbo planner? has form on this site for ridiculing any proposition that doesn't fit his capsular view of the world. (Yes many people still read the Daily Telegraph and The Australian because it gives a conveniently simple and 2 dimensional view of events) Just watch their unrelenting war on the Gillard govt. Anybody REALLY believe any one can get it so wrong - and oh yes Tony Abbot is the answer. Many are uncomfortable with doubts re The New World Order.

Some people have stopped posting for fear of being ridiculed.

 

Alan.

 

 

[J170 Owner]

I'm waiting for the nut cases to start the conspiracy theories over the awful school shooting just over a week ago. Government mind control gone wrong? Cyborg escapes research facility? There are people who for some strange reason must start these stories to satisfy some pathetic need in their aimless lives. (I might add this posting is no way intended to insult anybody posting to this forum)

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

Some people have stopped posting for fear of being ridiculed.Alan.

Yes, no-one likes public ridicule. And sadly I've seen exactly that happen on more than one site and it's turned those sites from having a good active membership with wide representation of viewpoints from all corners of society, into a platform for the self-opinionated and more articulate, regardless of their subject knowledge or accuracy. If they resort to sarcasm and ridicule without bothering to gather the facts properly before authoritatively posting their definitive version of events, the whole value of the forum is eroded.