Lockhart River Qld. Plane crash. 11th March 2020.

[Guest Machtuk]

The only dodgy flights I have had in 40 years of business flying were RPT and not charter. Small RPT twins seemed to have a get-there imperative in bad storms, whereas a charter pilot just turned and said that it was too rough and we would wait.

 

Actually it's the opposite. RPT operate to a higher std and there is more protection for the driver,(unions better SOP's etc) it's the add hoc GA Charter that is the most likely to be under commercial pressure.

[Fred]

The big difference between commercial and private flying is what is EXPECTED of a professional pilot.

(leaving aside the issues of duty hours & overloading)

Both are using forecasts and everybody accepts the variations involved there.

 

The major difference is at the planning stage - if the flight is ”legal“ including fuel reserves, alternates etc. the competent pilot is expected to complete the task - the option of I’ll just wait another day as in private flying Is not a option (Call it commercial pressure if you like).

 

The issue that arises is when the conditions change from the forecast ones. This then becomes a human decision (occurring at 150-200 kts). Yes the relevant rules still apply but the only one who knows what the actual conditions are is the one in the cockpit.

 

Mistakes are made unfortunately but more more rules will not change that. It is easy to make decisions in hindsight but human factors (& I dislike the overuse of the term) is what comes into play.

 

Management will never say get in or crash trying. CoR legislation will not address these type of situations - certainly could have an effect on matters such as maintenance shortcuts and the like.

[turboplanner]

Chain of Responsibility doesn’t apply to the driver, it applies to the management chain and customers.

[Fred]

Chain of Responsibility doesn’t apply to the driver, it applies to the management chain and customers.

And the point of that statement is?

[Yenn]

Chain of responsibility doesn't matter. There will always be cowboys and they will always end up making the wrong calls.

In my civil engineering life I had a boss who was a mad keen flyer. He was a very poor boss, had no idea how to do a job or treat others he came into contact with. So bad that in the end I told the big boss I could no linger work with him. No problem. That man went on to get a flying job, mainly freight I think. Last I heard of him was an article in the Aviation Safety Digest, when he talked about his experience of nearly running out of fuel, due to bad weather and his not insisting on taking more fuel, even though he told his bosses that it would be prudent. He made the wrong decisions as a civil engineer and nearly died from the same behaviour as a pilot. With a bit of luck he has learned his lesson. I haven't heard of his demise.

[facthunter]

Theoretically, by law the PIC is sole master of the vessel and finally responsible for how it's operated..He/she will always operate in the safest manner possible. That's the over riding requirement, by law.

. When you fly your own plane for your recreation you are never forced to operate to the limit of the conditions. You can work to what YOU wish to but not beyond the law. There is an expectation that RPT will operate 24/7 and stay on schedule and owners/operators will attempt to cut fuel loads and have the flight go if it's possible to do so..Nev

[turboplanner]

Chain of responsibility doesn't matter. There will always be cowboys and they will always end up making the wrong calls.

In my civil engineering life I had a boss who was a mad keen flyer. He was a very poor boss, had no idea how to do a job or treat others he came into contact with. So bad that in the end I told the big boss I could no linger work with him. No problem. That man went on to get a flying job, mainly freight I think. Last I heard of him was an article in the Aviation Safety Digest, when he talked about his experience of nearly running out of fuel, due to bad weather and his not insisting on taking more fuel, even though he told his bosses that it would be prudent. He made the wrong decisions as a civil engineer and nearly died from the same behaviour as a pilot. With a bit of luck he has learned his lesson. I haven't heard of his demise.

CoR is not there to manage a driver’s behaviour. He has to do that and driver standard varies as you have said.

CoR is aimed at others who might instruct him, or put pressure on him either directly or through a chain such as a customer ordering goods for delivery at an impossible time, and the Tranport company telling a driver or subcontractor “this is what the customer wants.”

[Guest Machtuk]

Fuel is one of the big commercial pressure factors, the Norfolk Island underwater aviation museum is testimony to that fact!

[Rush]

CoR is not there to manage a driver’s behaviour. He has to do that and driver standard varies as you have said.

CoR is aimed at others who might instruct him, or put pressure on him either directly or through a chain such as a customer ordering goods for delivery at an impossible time, and the Tranport company telling a driver or subcontractor “this is what the customer wants.”

 

 

At this point, we are speaking the same language. Different words. And we all want the same thing, so I can understand the frustration.

 

We have something similar in aviation. Developed years ago, we don’t call it CoR but Safety Management System (SMS). The whole system is designed to put everyone, from the bottom to CEO under a system where everyone is responsible for safe outcomes.

 

CASA tried legislating that everyone with an AOC needs a SMS maybe 5 years ago. The general aviation and small charter companies all jumped up and down and collectively said they couldn’t afford it. Didn’t want it, and it would cause undue pressure on their business.........it’s almost like the people that own these companies didn’t want a system where they could be responsible or liable......

 

Casa went backwards and required it for only for RPT operators. However for everyone else it was optional but recommendation (for other AOC holders). There are many places that have half an SMS, or just copy paste the standard SMS so they look like they have one. I would hazard a guess and say the vast majority of SMS’s in GA are poorly implemented or ignored.

 

The culture here is SMS is useless and a waste of money and effort. ICAO don’t agree, and I think they might know a thing or two about aviation. Airlines don’t agree, they live and breath SMS now. And it’s working, people from the cleaner to the CEO are responsible, liable and have a voice to report safety issues.

[turboplanner]

At this point, we are speaking the same language. Different words. And we all want the same thing, so I can understand the frustration.

 

We have something similar in aviation. Developed years ago, we don’t call it CoR but Safety Management System (SMS). The whole system is designed to put everyone, from the bottom to CEO under a system where everyone is responsible for safe outcomes.

 

CASA tried legislating that everyone with an AOC needs a SMS maybe 5 years ago. The general aviation and small charter companies all jumped up and down and collectively said they couldn’t afford it. Didn’t want it, and it would cause undue pressure on their business.........it’s almost like the people that own these companies didn’t want a system where they could be responsible or liable......

 

Casa went backwards and required it for only for RPT operators. However for everyone else it was optional but recommendation (for other AOC holders). There are many places that have half an SMS, or just copy paste the standard SMS so they look like they have one. I would hazard a guess and say the vast majority of SMS’s in GA are poorly implemented or ignored.

 

The culture here is SMS is useless and a waste of money and effort. ICAO don’t agree, and I think they might know a thing or two about aviation. Airlines don’t agree, they live and breath SMS now. And it’s working, people from the cleaner to the CEO are responsible, liable and have a voice to report safety issues.

Chain of Responsibility is not the same as SMS.

CoR is prescriptive legislation where, as a rough example, after a fatal crash the driver might say he was coerced into driving too many hours, and Police will then interview the person he blamed. That person in turn might say he was only doing what he was told by the General Manager. The GM may say that it was Company policy for that Customer who has set a fixed delivery time with penalty rates, or issued an order subject to the goods being at the destination at a certain time (which would have required the driver to speed or fake log books)

In CoR you can get a situation where the driver gets off, but all those others are heavily fined or do time in prison; it's very powerful prescriptive legislation.

 

The Safety Management System is a non-prescriptive self administration system where the government (police) don't have any legal liability, so don't need to administer it, and don't need to prosecute.

 

Under Self Administration you decide how you are going to operate because you take the law suits if there's an accident.

This leads to the "optional but recommended" tag which catches so many people.

 

If you are a single person business which primarily consists of driving a car (which is primarily controlled by prescriptive legislation anyway), you might decide to keep the few safety issues you have to watch out for in your head.

 

The problem comes when you are sick and someone stands in for you and injures someone; then you might have a few million dollars in costs.

 

So you write an SMS for your operation, which will be a very brief document.

 

As the company gets bigger and more operations and more people are involved the SMS needs to be more complicated, but still simple enough to be useable by the workers. That document can then save you from a negligence lawsuit if the operator was doing what the SMS said to do.

 

RAA Inc. had an SMS; I'm not sure if one was set up for RAA Ltd.

[M61A1]

Chain of Responsibility is not the same as SMS.

Yes, we all get that, but the SMS is a tool the business uses to ensure that they have met their responsibility in managing their risk. That's why people keep bringing it up.

 

That document can then save you from a negligence lawsuit if the operator was doing what the SMS said to do.

This is what everyone is talking about. The SMS says all the right things, everyone can repeat all the right things when necessary, auditors get to see all the right things, but reality is often different, then occasionally something goes really bad. Investigations happen and people say " We don't know why he did that, it's clearly against company policy"

[Guest Machtuk]

SMS are like locks on doors, there to make people 'think' they are safe!

[Bruce Tuncks]

Turbs, what is your take on the Whyalla disaster? I remember that they had a 2 week whitewash of an enquiry which didn't even consider details which were well known in the aviation industry. Details like how the first engine failed over Kadina ( Adelaide radar trace ) and why the pilot had good reason to believe he would get the sack if he landed there.

During the 2 weeks of the enquiry, more people died on the roads than in the crash, but I reckon that nobody else noticed or cared.

Not that onetrack's story is hard to believe. I am sure that most operators are decent people. But even decent people can act badly if they are overstressed at a looming bankruptcy.

[turboplanner]

Yes, we all get that, but the SMS is a tool the business uses to ensure that they have met their responsibility in managing their risk. That's why people keep bringing it up.

You're mixing with the wrong people; get out while you can because knowingly doing that gives them no protection at all.

The SMS is usually written by the people doing the work, adjusted regularly, and reflects procedures which will protect employees from injury. The SMS content and compliance can form part of any lawsuit, as in ignore it and you pay.

The SMS says all the right things, everyone can repeat all the right things when necessary, auditors get to see all the right things, but reality is often different, then occasionally something goes really bad.

There are certainly organisations with "lip-service" SMS clauses, such as "Everyone must work with safety in mind". That would be a useless SMS and would save nobody after an accident. There are some which you bring up from time to time who decide that although they have the responsibility for safety, they're not going to do it because it's BS. What governments have done for those is reinstate WorkSafe in State and Territory versions, where, after a negligent accident you can guarantee investigators will come in and the negligent people will finish up in court with fines sometimes in hundreds of thousands of dollars, and may be sued for negligence as well.

Most organisations these days have a very good SMS and Procedures policy.

[facthunter]

People get used to taking shortcuts. It's a part of a learning process till you learn the hard way that there's a safe limit to shortcuts.

A "culture of safety" can exist but it tends to become whiteanted over time if enough slackness evolves.. Nev

Edited March 20, 2020 by facthunter

[turboplanner]

Turbs, what is your take on the Whyalla disaster? I remember that they had a 2 week whitewash of an enquiry which didn't even consider details which were well known in the aviation industry. Details like how the first engine failed over Kadina ( Adelaide radar trace ) and why the pilot had good reason to believe he would get the sack if he landed there.

During the 2 weeks of the enquiry, more people died on the roads than in the crash, but I reckon that nobody else noticed or cared.

Not that onetrack's story is hard to believe. I am sure that most operators are decent people. But even decent people can act badly if they are overstressed at a looming bankruptcy.

I can't remember where it finished up.

I remember one of the TV Channels like 4 Corners or Sixty minutes did an extended story on it, and showed maintenance items and operational issues, and that there was an inquiry but that's about all.

Someone mentioned CAR224 earlier, so unless a PIC acts correctly he's going to take the hit as far as I can see; which is why I suggested looking at the truck industry's Chain of Responsibility.

[M61A1]

The SMS is usually written by the people doing the work

On what planet?

I've been back in aviation maintenance for the last 16 years with a few different companies and contracts and every safety document is written by a consultant and usually they have a mining background. While they usually comply with legislation, a lot of their ideas are incompatible with aviation. Working at heights requirements, workstands and walkways are particularly atrocious.

 

There are certainly organisations with "lip-service" SMS clauses

I would reverse these statements and say that "some" organisations have have good SMS policy and "most" pay lip service....That goes for the construction industry as well.

[Guest Machtuk]

M61 you are wasing yr time with turbo, I've put the fool on my ignore list! He just doesn't get it as he has no idea about commercial charter flying, a wannabe pilot!

[Thruster88]

M61 you are wasing yr time with turbo, I've put the fool on my ignore list! He just doesn't get it as he has no idea about commercial charter flying, a wannabe pilot!

 

As a harvest road train driver and private pilot for more than 20 years I feel Turbo has presented a lot of good and correct info. You don't have to be a commercial pilot, soldier or truck driver to know when things are not right. COR stopped us overloading because the grain dumps would not unload if we were more than 5% over, it made the truck more enjoyable to drive for me. One similar thing with truck drivers and piston commercial pilots is the whining sound.

[facthunter]

I've never put anyone on an ignore list, myself, as YOU can just choose to ignore anyone as you see fit. . I consider personal insults inappropriate on a site such as this is as it inhibits some people contributing if they might be so affected. Also responding to the attacks makes the scene a put off generally . We don't want to resemble P Prune at it's worst...

IF the issues of flying under pressure was so simple to sort out as has been suggested, it would have been solved long ago. The Authority( CASA) does have power but I've not seen it as effective in this area as it could be. (tackling the big boys). This is not entirely their fault.. If an operator has the ear of an overseas gov't OR connections to our own and it becomes a diplomatic/political issue they can become effectively untouchable. For the individual pilot and small operators the application of the rules (law) within Offence of Strict Liability framework is a patchy and an often Unjust process.

Thruster 88. sorry I don't agree with your comparison. A Private Pilot NEVER has to be subjected to the pressures a pilot in the Industry MAY be placed under. It's a totally different environment and in many aspects there are no direct comparisons with trucking operations in Australia. Nev

Edited March 20, 2020 by facthunter

[Guest Machtuk]

As a harvest road train driver and private pilot for more than 20 years I feel Turbo has presented a lot of good and correct info. You don't have to be a commercial pilot, soldier or truck driver to know when things are not right. COR stopped us overloading because the grain dumps would not unload if we were more than 5% over, it made the truck more enjoyable to drive for me. One similar thing with truck drivers and piston commercial pilots is the whining sound.

 

He's way off the mark but hey let's not let an ill informed Pvt pilot get in the way of what actually happens out there!

[Butch]

M61 you are wasing yr time with turbo, I've put the fool on my ignore list! He just doesn't get it as he has no idea about commercial charter flying, a wannabe pilot!

If you don't like it go back to PRUNE with your professional mates!

Look at the title " Recreational Flying" Derrrrrrrrrrr

[Butch]

I've never put anyone on an ignore list, myself, as YOU can just choose to ignore anyone as you see fit. . I consider personal insults inappropriate on a site such as this is as it inhibits some people contributing if they might be so affected. Also responding to the attacks makes the scene a put off generally . We don't want to resemble P Prune at it's worst...

IF the issues of flying under pressure was so simple to sort out as has been suggested, it would have been solved long ago. The Authority( CASA) does have power but I've not seen it as effective in this area as it could be. (tackling the big boys). This is not entirely their fault.. If an operator has the ear of an overseas gov't OR connections to our own and it becomes a diplomatic/political issue they can become effectively untouchable. For the individual pilot and small operators the application of the rules (law) within Offence of Strict Liability framework is a patchy and an often Unjust process.

Thruster 88. sorry I don't agree with your comparison. A Private Pilot NEVER has to be subjected to the pressures a pilot in the Industry MAY be placed under. It's a totally different environment and in many aspects there are no direct comparisons with trucking operations in Australia. Nev

Well said Nev!

Nev is one of our stalwarts take his advice!

[Guest Machtuk]

I

Why don't you go back to PRUNE with your professional mates!

Look at the title " Recreational Flying" Derrrrrrrrrrr

 

Best you get educated and read the banner....& GENERAL AVIATION! I fly LSA these days but have been there done that! I was wondering when I had to add another to my ignore list! Some just hate it when others mention what really goes on out there due experience but they don't know about it! I guess some live in a sheltered angry world!

[facthunter]

If that's applicable Butch, the entire thread shouldn't be allowed as it wasn't a recreational aircraft involved.., Some Professionals also fly/own rec aircraft.. I would think having the facts might be a worthy aim wherever they come from. On here all pilots are equal... Not everyone likes everything I say but I (and you) should be allowed to say what they believe is true. Nev

Edited March 20, 2020 by facthunter