How has COVID 19 affected your flying or intended flying

[M61A1]

It's good to see so many of you giving advice of your immense medical knowledge about infectious diseases.

I'd recommend the US if you want open slather, I'm sure Donny would welcome with open arms another Trump voter

No one was talking about open slather. There are other options between the extremes. It seems that everyone that's fine with locking the country up believes there only other thing to do would be to do nothing at all.

If we all lived by the advice of medicos no one would play football, ride a horse, bicycle, motorcycle, fly recreationally, drink or smoke and probably a heap of other things. These are all things I have been advised by various doctors to avoid over the years.

I doesn't take much to look at the laws being enforced over the last few months to realise that a lot of them were utter garbage. Nothing wrong with "social distancing", but there are so many examples of "illegal behaviour" that perfectly embody the spirit of "social distancing", but were shut down.

If it's ok to head off to the shop where there are a couple of hundred other people all having everything they handle handled by a few checkout operators, it's probably fine to swim in the surf, lay in the sun or camp in the middle of nowhere.

[onetrack]

SplitS said ...

...suicide rate in Australia has increased by over 50%.

Where do you get this figure from? It can't be official, it takes time to collate and release records of death by suicide. Many odd deaths have to be investigated to determine whether the death was accidental or suicide.

The last official figures for suicide numbers would be for the period well before the COVID-19 virus even struck in China.

 

And the suicide rate is not specifically raised directly by the coronavirus. Suicide reasons are more often related to partnership breakdowns, money worries, job worries - and familial hereditary reasons.

In other words, suicidal tendencies run in families, and are inherited.

I have known numerous people who suicided, and in every case, they suffered from regular deep depression and suicidal thoughts - and eventually took their lives after more than one attempt.

 

Perhaps surprisingly to some, the greatest reduction in suicides in Australia came in the years after the gun buyback. Easy access to multiple firearms was a common feature of suicides in the era before the gun buyback.

The suicide rate by firearm dropped by 60% after the gun buyback, and the suicide rate overall, dropped by a sizeable percentage. People with suicidal tendencies fall into deep depression over the smallest issues, and need constant support.

[Flightrite]

No one was talking about open slather. There are other options between the extremes. It seems that everyone that's fine with locking the country up believes there only other thing to do would be to do nothing at all.

If we all lived by the advice of medicos no one would play football, ride a horse, bicycle, motorcycle, fly recreationally, drink or smoke and probably a heap of other things. These are all things I have been advised by various doctors to avoid over the years.

I doesn't take much to look at the laws being enforced over the last few months to realise that a lot of them were utter garbage. Nothing wrong with "social distancing", but there are so many examples of "illegal behaviour" that perfectly embody the spirit of "social distancing", but were shut down.

If it's ok to head off to the shop where there are a couple of hundred other people all having everything they handle handled by a few checkout operators, it's probably fine to swim in the surf, lay in the sun or camp in the middle of nowhere.

 

Couldn't agree more! The stupidity of the laws at the height of it all in some instance knows no bounds! Early on the water rats pulled up a lone sail board rider presumable to fine him but it got squashed I imagine, utter stupidity in that case! There where 4 reasons to leave home ( we all knew what they where) yet places like Bunnings etc where very busy! I hope the Govt learned that the extreme tyranny they put upon us destroying our economy for a long time seved only to create hysteria! We boffins couldn't even agree across the whole nation, we where and still are divided!

[Student Pilot]

Get your tinfoil hats out fella's, somebodies getting to you. Are you near a 5 G tower?

[Jerry_Atrick]

In the middle of March, this thread was started: COVID-19 Virus. I am guessing the deat toll at the time for the UK was low.. only dead that day.. Coming up to three months later, the UK has reported almosy 37,000 deaths.. on a linear scale, that would be over 12,000 a month. While I admire your opinions, they are just opinions.. Others have provided stats and facts to support.. not quaint and old-fashioned assertions of tyranny..

 

Apart from a few early stuff-ups, Australian states have done very well globally and are in the news here as an example of what should have been done. The government and the medics here are coming under fire for the slowness in handling it. Only last week, they decided to impose self-isolaton for 2 weeks for people coming to the UK and it really isn't enforced as all they have to do is tell border control where they will be self-isolating so they can be checked up on..of course, the government won't provide the resources to make sure they are checked up on. 36,000 dead for a population 3 times Australias. Yes, it is much more densly populated, but the lockdown was not strictly enforced, either... and I know of people who went to work when they didn't have to - and got it.. and like Nev says, they aren't quite right (yet).

 

You may take it ias denying your liberty - and you are right.. It's sort of like smokers though - preserve their right to smoke in the face of denying others around them their right not to smoke. We know this is a doozy... unlike the flu... So I would like my right in a democractic and supposedly intelligent society not to be forcibly subjected to it because my grocery delivery driver has been.

 

I was listening to a radio program about the spanish flu, which incdentally may not have originated in spain. Virtually all of Europe went into lockdown to eradicate it (after it took its toll but was still growing). A Scottish doctor sort of started the process much like the process your government has done a good job of protecting you from... Because, let's face it, when they first introduced measures for social distancing, effing idiots like the bondi folk couldn't adhere to it, or maybe they thought like you do now, that their liberties were unfairly removed. Virtually every pandemic has shown to be quickly contained through lockdown. As the docs next door say, once it's dead because it hasn't spread, it's gone. No second wave (which is probably why despite a potential reducing rate, the lockdown was maintaned). It became known as the Spaish flu becase Spain didn't go into lockdown and it maintained its stranglehold there and ripped harder through the population there than anywhere else.

 

My revenue has all but dried up.. But I would prefer that than to cop this thing.. I have no known coindition and can ride a bike 30 odd miles on a hilly route reasonably comfortbly. But I sure don't want to find oiut through dying that I have some unknwon condition - nor do I want anyone I know to. But more importantly, I want the current resources we have allocated to saving people able to handle normal volumes. It is clear that the deat rates other countries (incuding the US where morgues were overflowing - remember) that without drastic - but temporary action, it could be you the docs sacrifice because there isn't enough beds, ventilators, etc.

 

And the fact comorbitity may be a factor, does not mean someone who has a condition doesn't have the right to live... or have we suddenly lost our sense of humanity.

[Jim McDowall]

or have we suddenly lost our sense of humanity.

Unfortunately there are times when "our sense of humanity" cannot be allowed to over-ride the greater responsibilities that leadership in government should (and must) also be taken into account when reacting to various circumstances. For example, most governments have policies that prevent the payment of ransoms to secure the freedom of hostages or in the most extreme case, to go to war when history shows us that it is civilians who overwhelmingly bear the brunt of warfare. Even urban planning decisions disregard "our sense of humanity" on occasions.

When governments make emotionally based decisions, the unforeseen consequences will almost certainly outweigh the perceived advantages of the adopted course of action. (remember the "pink batts affair"?)

The cleaning out of hospitals to prepare for the onslaught of the virus will have ongoing consequences for the health of many Australians. Less than 1,000 virus victims were admitted to Australian hospitals whilst many operations essential to better health outcomes for many were deferred. On top of that many casually employed health workers were cast onto welfare without access to the support schemes the Government trumpeted.

It made sense to close Australia's borders in contrast to Britain who maintain open borders to this day with no health checks for those entering the country. On the day Italy locked down Lombardy, 17 flights from Milan (in the locked down region) arrived in Britain. Clearly the virus was going to spread.

However the tyrannical, often illogical panic ridden decisions of Australia's political leaders who were obviously captive of the medical "experts" to the exclusion of harder heads with a view to the longer game. And what of the role of police? There was no public order issue in the main, especially if Bunnings and the major supermarkets experiences were anything to go by (buy?).

[kgwilson]

Hindsight is the only exact science. Mistakes were made and there were some rules that appeared pretty tenuous. The fact that we haven't required thousands of ventilators and equipment we didn't have but do now shows that creating the rules and adhering to them by and large has worked. The models showed a looming catastrophe and that was averted. Brazil is now a basket case & they have no hope of containing the Pandemic, and with all of their resources the US death toll now tops 100,000 more that all their wars since 1945 and annual gun & road tolls combined. Swedens experiment has also failed and that with a population that generally follows what their government says.

 

What we did has worked and while it will cost the country massively the alternative would have been unimaginably catastrophic.

[Bruce Tuncks]

I disagree with your last bit Jerry.

I reckon the right to do something stupid and carry the risk yourself is an important liberty. Yep even if it means dying.

We have just celebrated anzac day here and those soldiers we are venerating sure illustrate that. It is hard to imagine doing anything more wilfully stupid than what those ww1 soldiers did.

Without this freedom, lots of things like rock fishing would be banned, not to mention rec flying.

Carrying the risk yourself should mean that warnings etc have been well made public.

Should you rescue a stupid person from the consequences of their own wilful actions? What about an anti-vaxxer who contracts the illness ? My personal answer is that I would, if resources were available and the stupid person were made to pay. I'd garnish their centerlink payments if needed.

Should an ordinary person miss out because the hospital beds were full of anti-vaxxers? No way, say I.

I agree that dependents of stupid people are a difficult thing to deal with, but we could do a lot for them if we tried.

[Flightrite]

I disagree with your last bit Jerry.

I reckon the right to do something stupid and carry the risk yourself is an important liberty. Yep even if it means dying.

We have just celebrated anzac day here and those soldiers we are venerating sure illustrate that. It is hard to imagine doing anything more wilfully stupid than what those ww1 soldiers did.

Without this freedom, lots of things like rock fishing would be banned, not to mention rec flying.

Carrying the risk yourself should mean that warnings etc have been well made public.

Should you rescue a stupid person from the consequences of their own wilful actions? What about an anti-vaxxer who contracts the illness ? My personal answer is that I would, if resources were available and the stupid person were made to pay. I'd garnish their centerlink payments if needed.

Should an ordinary person miss out because the hospital beds were full of anti-vaxxers? No way, say I.

I agree that dependents of stupid people are a difficult thing to deal with, but we could do a lot for them if we tried.

 

Well said?

[Jerry_Atrick]

@Bruce Tuncks - I understand where you're coming from.. But recall for the Anzacs, that they were under the impression that they were just going to have a crack at the enemy and come home. DO you think that if it were known how horrible the conditions were that they would have signed up in the first instance And as a result of there being an initial wave of volunteers, if you didn't sign up once the communty had already paid dearly with the first recruits, you were pressured/ostracied into signing up (white feathers or something I recall). Although conjecture, I would wager they wouldn't have been initially so quick to sign up if it were known in the first place the hell they were going into.

 

With respect to the idiiots, such as those on Bondi Beach, well, I would have to agree with you. Except, unfortunately, we don't live in isolation (otherwise a lockdown would not be required). We live in a community where those idiots interact with others who may be be doing the right thing. The problem is they can be running around for 2 weeks without knowing they are even infectious. You may be the one who opens the door they have left the virus on; you may have been forced to go to work against your will and they have come into the shop you are working and passed it onto you, despite you taking all the precautions.. The smoking analogy I used is but one.. but consider this... your son or daughter are married.. they have a couple of kids and their partner decides to sleep around.. The parther knows the risk of contacting HIV, but they are stupid enough to sleep without protection (or lets say they get into drugs and share needles,.. or whatever). And they pick up HIV.. After all, like COVID, it is a while between contracting HIV and the symptoms showing.. Your son or daughter is faithful and has no idea aout what is going on, however, picks up HIV because of their patner's stupidity.... Just because your son or daughter have contracted it do they deserve to die as obviosuly, it is their stupidity for allowing themselves to catch it? Of course not.. They have been faithful, etc and it is the stupidity of others that led them to their position - and that is exactly what could happen with COVID.

 

Now, before I am told that, it may be the case, then why don't they outlaw sex or some such thing.. Well, they have to an extent here.. it is an offence to have sex with someone else when you know you have HIV and don't disclose it. But remember, HIV is a lot harder to contract that COVID. (or the SARs virus attached to it). COVID is so easy to get, it warranted a lockdown. It's not forever.. things won't quite be the same, but things are changing all the time.

 

I accept there may be an increase in mental health issues and that there may be a suicide increase. I know the docs are talking about it as our neighbours are acutely aware of it. However, the question would have to be which is the lesser of the two evils.. and where is the modelling to show it? Also, don't forget, the vast majority of mental illnesses suffered are of a temporary nature - we only hear about the chronic conditions.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Jerry_Atrick

[M61A1]

With respect to the idiiots, such as those on Bondi Beach, well, I would have to agree with you

While I won't condone what these clowns did, I seem to recall that a large number of cases were due to well heeled travellers who decided to hold post trip dinner parties.

I have no issue with the government taking some action, but those actions need to be well thought out and not the typical "knee jerk" that we got. Legislation needs to be clear, concise, consistent and above all actually address the problem with minimal negative outcome. It has been a "fail" on all of those things.

You can use a small hammer to crack a nut, but the govt used a very large sledgehammer. The result was that the nut was cracked, but collateral damage was/is high.

[Jerry_Atrick]

I think the minimal negative outcome is because of the action the government - well the chief medical advisers - took. Just look at other hotspots where they were more relaxed but implemented social distancing only. These figures speak for themselves. The government erred on the side of caution.. In hindsight, closing the borders entirely, stuffing everyone's house with enough food and dunny paper for a few weeks, finding places for the homeless for that time and going into total lockdown (obviosuly, medical cases excepted) probably would have nipped it in the bud and we would all be back to normal... (gross oversimplification, but you get the idea).

[facthunter]

A doubt any country is in a better position than we are, at the moment. We can quickly lose it if we are stupid (Yes you can lose all the good work of a lot of people,) and we have a great capacity for that as we constantly show. There weren't medical workers laid off in Vic. To the contrary retired ones were brought back and part trained ones up graded. Everything Andrews has done is on medically backed advice. You won't get this story in the Murdoch press. (of course). Nev

[Flightrite]

While I won't condone what these clowns did, I seem to recall that a large number of cases were due to well heeled travellers who decided to hold post trip dinner parties.

I have no issue with the government taking some action, but those actions need to be well thought out and not the typical "knee jerk" that we got. Legislation needs to be clear, concise, consistent and above all actually address the problem with minimal negative outcome. It has been a "fail" on all of those things.

You can use a small hammer to crack a nut, but the govt used a very large sledgehammer. The result was that the nut was cracked, but collateral damage was/is high.

Again well said! Our corrupt divided Govt carpet bombed the whole country in order to stop their stuff ups in the first place, now we are ALL paying for it!

[facthunter]

Go firmly and go early. The proven successful method. NOT doing that has put the worst cases around the world. where they are.

I don't think using terms like" carpet bombed the whole country" tells the story correctly. This virus doesn't have wings or legs, It is transmitted by People to other people. Reducing/eliminating contact does it. WHAT other place wouldn't want to be where WE are? .Nev

[octave]

Again well said! Our corrupt Govt carpet bombed the whole country in order to stop their stuff ups in the first place, now we are ALL paying for it

 

Our response was no more draconian than most other countries we just did it earlier. I am no fan of the government but I look upon where we are now with some level of pride. We could have handled it like Spain or the US or Brazil or Sweden and been in a similar situation to these countries. No matter what course of action we took the economy was always going to suffer to some degree. Airlines wont get back to normal simply by lifting restrictions. Many people will not book a ticket until they feel relatively safe. I am self employed luckily I am smart and resilient enough to have shifted a reasonable amount of my business online, In order to go back to normal people will need to feel safe. A second wave will deter potential customers and delay a return to normal. I think that people are erroneously comparing the pre covid economy with the lockdown economy without considering what the effect of a higher infection and death rate. I cant think of country I would rather be in at this point other than perhaps NZ.

 

In terms of personal responsibility I would agree that we are all responsible for our own safety however sometimes the actions of others can make that more difficult. I am a private music teacher teaching wind instruments (now online) I also have a preexisting health condition which I guess in some people's eyes makes me one of the expendables, The last lesson I taught face to face was with a young guy who works for for a large bank as a trader. I had already decided that I would no longer teach face to face after this lesson until the infection rate was brought under control. At the end of the lesson whilst he was packing up I asked him how work was going. He informed me that his department had closed and they were all working from home due to an out break. I was not impressed. I did not discuss it with him but I assume his attitude may have been that covid represented a small risk to him. This of course was a much bigger risk to me. It becomes difficult for me to take responsibility for my health when I rely on others to do the right thing.

 

I accept that these are difficult times for some people. I have lost quite a large amount from my super although it is clawing its way back and the market has been quite strong recently. I have been able to adapt but I have sympathy for those who are struggling financially. I do not however have sympathy for those who are whinging because they temporarily can't go fishing or bent out of shape because they cant get a haircut.

[Yenn]

The government has done well in Australia, but seems to have gone for total eradication, rather than the original containment policy. It may be possible to eradicate the virus, but not if government doesn't get itself sorted out.

We had the fiasco with the Ruby Princess, which I believe was being investigated and we have heard nothing. No doubt because some government workers will be embarrassed.

Now we have a livestock carrier docking in WA and exactly the same thing has happened. We have different government departments denying all responsibility. I find it hard for governments to expect us to conform, when they cannot do so themselves.

For the same mistake to be made twice is criminal in my opinion and I would like to see the high up heads roll, that is ministers and other highly paid civil servants.

[octave]

We had the fiasco with the Ruby Princess, which I believe was being investigated and we have heard nothing.

 

You can get a live stream here, and also videos of previous days hearings as well as transcripts. I have not delved in myself but those who are interested can check this out.

 

Hearings - The Special Commission of Inquiry into the Ruby Princess

[facthunter]

30 year old dies of the virus in Blackwater.QLD NOW

. These events will keep popping up. Maybe FIFO. Not only the old die. There's no place for gung ho " I'm OK you can get effed." WE ALL have to do a part. Any consideration of the NEW being as it was is wild conjecture. There's much to find out yet. It's more like AIDS TB and polio till they were controlled (but are coming back due slack attitudes). We move around like no other civilisation ever has and there's multiples of us compared to past population levels. This pandemic was always going to happen and there may well be more to come. Same as predictable problems with Industrial scale Agricultural monoculture practices.. Nev

[Jim McDowall]

We can quickly lose it if we are stupid

The only stupid thing that can be done from now on is to open the country's borders. It is to all intensive purposes contained in Oz.

[Flightrite]

The government has done well in Australia, but seems to have gone for total eradication, rather than the original containment policy. It may be possible to eradicate the virus, but not if government doesn't get itself sorted out.

We had the fiasco with the Ruby Princess, which I believe was being investigated and we have heard nothing. No doubt because some government workers will be embarrassed.

Now we have a livestock carrier docking in WA and exactly the same thing has happened. We have different government departments denying all responsibility. I find it hard for governments to expect us to conform, when they cannot do so themselves.

For the same mistake to be made twice is criminal in my opinion and I would like to see the high up heads roll, that is ministers and other highly paid civil servants.

That's why I said our is corrupt Govt, I would trust them with a kids lolly pop!

[Bruce Tuncks]

Here's a good question... if you are the only person in town who is not infected, can you stay that way by being careful?

The most expert person I have asked says the answer is "yes".

But Jerry does have a good point about households where one person is careless. I say that careless one should be legally liable for any harm they do to the rest. Yes I know this isn't the perfect solution, and the careful person would need to beware of other household members.

SO maybe the question should be " if you have the only household in town which is not infected, can you stay that way?"

[Jerry_Atrick]

Why wait until virtually everyone is infected before taking action?

[SplitS]

Here's a good question... if you are the only person in town who is not infected, can you stay that way by being careful?

The most expert person I have asked says the answer is "yes".

But Jerry does have a good point about households where one person is careless. I say that careless one should be legally liable for any harm they do to the rest. Yes I know this isn't the perfect solution, and the careful person would need to beware of other household members.

SO maybe the question should be " if you have the only household in town which is not infected, can you stay that way?"

The latest data is saying even if you live with someone with covid your chance of infection is only 15% You will not get a 100% infection rate.

Here is a German virologist talking about covid19 they have just finished a major study.

[M61A1]

30 year old dies of the virus in Blackwater.QLD NOW

. These events will keep popping up. Maybe FIFO. Not only the old die. There's no place for gung ho " I'm OK you can get effed." WE ALL have to do a part. Any consideration of the NEW being as it was is wild conjecture. There's much to find out yet. It's more like AIDS TB and polio till they were controlled (but are coming back due slack attitudes). We move around like no other civilisation ever has and there's multiples of us compared to past population levels. This pandemic was always going to happen and there may well be more to come. Same as predictable problems with Industrial scale Agricultural monoculture practices.. Nev

This guy hade a complicated medical history and they are looking at possible contact with the infected healthcare worker from Rockhampton.

He had been sick for weeks yet his partner who lives with him has tested negative at this stage.