Oil in Avgas?

[NT5224]

Hi folks

 

Just a quickie!

 

Im thinking about storing 44 gallon drums of Avgas at my home strip. In theory I can buy new drums directly from a supplier (Shell), but anecdotally they will only sell a minimum of four together (apparently to keep Avgas out of the hands of racing enthusiasts).

 

An alternative will be to fill up some pre-used drums at the local bowser. I know a bloke who runs a high end vehicle service centre/workshop. He gets his oil by the drum and so constantly has a turnover of virtually new single use-oil drums. So I can get near new drums for free and potentially just fill them at the Avgas bowser.

 

The question is whether the drums need to be meticulously cleaned before filling with Avgas? If it was an older petrol or diesel engine in a road vehicle, I'd have no hesitation in having a spot of clean oil mixed in the fuel -might even make them run a bit smoother. But what about a Lycoming burning Avgas? Of course I will flush the drums with a few litres of Avgas before filling, but aren't certain I'd get everything. Whats the worst a bit of clean oil could do if mixed into my Avgas?

 

Cheers

 

Alan

[Thruster88]

I have done what you are suggesting, just use unleaded for the cleaning

[Yenn]

If you get a 200l drum and it has a litre of oil left inside it, it you will have a 0.5% or 1:200 fuel oil mix. I don't think that would be a real problem, but it would be better if you put in some petrol to wash more of the oil away. No need for avgas I reckon standard would do and use it in a car or other machine, such as a mower.

[apm]

Cant see a problem with a bit of oil in the drum, Most Lycoming I've flown behind absolutely love burning oil, you can tell that by the amount that has to be added to the sump.

[facthunter]

I think it would depend on what type of oil was residual in the drum. Just an ordinary engine oil should not matter a lot. Ordinary oils lower the octane rating, but the amount is low if you drain it well. Nev.

[Downunder]

Skyfuel cards are free. You can fill as much as you want, when you want if you are able to get vehicle access to a suitable field. Aus-Wide Carnet - Skyfuel

 

If you are washing out drums, make sure the oil WILL dilute with your fuel.

[Guest Machtuk]

No big deal, oil will mix well with any fuel. Our air cooled engines run on oil and fuel anyway? The bigger issue is safe storage, moisture in the space above the fuel. Try to keep the drums full as possible slightly tilted ( Bing on high side) and never use the total drum contents at any one time.

[onetrack]

You must have some easy-going local bowser. Any fuel outlet that I refuel at, will not refuel containers bigger than 20L, and they must be sitting on the ground when being filled, to eliminate any chance of static spark.

You cannot fill any container with any type of fuel, no matter what the size, if it's sitting in a vehicle - even a traytop. They will shut your pump off, if they spot you doing it, and warn you over the forecourt loudspeaker.

This is pretty standard oil company restrictions and OH&S techniques right across Australia, I thought.

I know in the good old days (60's and 70's) we could do what we liked, when it came to refuelling - but this is the 21st Century, and rules are rules.

I even copped a blast from the servo operator for looking at texts on my phone at the pump. Told me to put my phone away or they'd shut off the pump. Standard rules, according to the pump operator.

Edited March 24, 2020 by onetrack

[spacesailor]

How do you fill a trailer mounted tank, after all it all comes by the trailer load.

4x4s can hold 120 ltrs of fuel, without the jerry cans.

Commercial portable fuel tanks can be 150 litres. ( sold by Pickles not that long ago. )

And I miss the smell of Caster-oil that was put in most petrol cars.

spacesailor

[Blueadventures]

NT, Avgas drums are the highest quality and have best interior coating, so best to get them as you can for your storage requirements. That way you will reduce the chance of rust / contamination inside over time due to the level of fuel at times in the drum and the effect of condensation on the exposed inner surface. Cheers.

[onetrack]

Spacey - Diesel tanks in trailers, and on vehicle trays have no filling restrictions, apart from perhaps litre limits set by the servo operator.

 

But petrol is a totally different kettle of fish, due to its low flash point and volatility.

 

 

"Clause 7.6.3 of AS1940 identifies the requirements for filling of containers with flammable liquids at service station fuel dispensers as follows:

 

7.6.3 Filling of containers at dispensers

 

Flammable liquids shall not be filled from a service station’s fuel dispenser into a container unless-

 

• The capacity of the container is not greater than 25L; and
  
• The container complies with AS/NZS 2906 or equivalent Standard, or is reasonably leakproof, metal, and has a tight-fitting closure; or
  
• The container is an approved fuel tank for a boat.
  

Any container shall be on the ground whilst being filled, and not in a car boot or the back of a utility vehicle.

 

NOTE: Approved portable fuel tanks for boats may be filled in situ."

 

 

Maybe fuel bowsers at airstrips operate under different rules to public service stations.

[spacesailor]

Said "portable 150 litre tanks" had an approval compliance plate attached,

Others on this forum would have had a look.

Must be able to fill them somewhere, or it would be ridiculous to sell them !.

PS.

1st item Ebay search: 75 litre .

" SPONSORED

Portable Petrol Fuel Tank With Rotary Pump 75 Litre

SAME DAY SHIPPING 11AM | GST INVOICE | INDUSTRY EXPERTS

Brand new

AU $450.00  List price: Previous price AU $599.95 "

 

spacesailor

Edited March 24, 2020 by spacesailor

[onetrack]

Spacey - Nope, plenty of stuff sold on eBay doesn't meet local regulations. You would not be able to fill that portable petrol fuel tank in any servo - and it is also illegal to store more than 20L of petrol in a house in a residential area.

[spacesailor]

OOps

don't tell .20 litres Avgas, same 95 (garden equipment ) 40 litres diesel. 40 litres outboard fuel. ( different sheds and down the mechanics pit (lovely & cool )

My Hummel Bird only Likes the best, Avgas 100LL.

Otherwise it get a hotspot or something ( burnt valves ) and wants to run on after ignition is switched off. No problems with the 100LL

All the maintenance runs added together, would have made a great Fly about to parts unknown. LoL

spacesailor

[Old Koreelah]

... and never use the total drum contents at any one time.

What's the reasoning there?

[spacesailor]

Water sits at the bottom !.

spacesailor

[onetrack]

All drums left exposed to the weather are notorious for ending up with water, and eventually rust, in the bottom of them.

But even drums stored inside buildings can collect water from moisture in the air, coupled with major variations in moisture and humidity - particularly if they are only partly-filled.

It was always drummed into us (no pun intended) to fill fuel tanks on equipment at knock-off time, because an empty fuel tank on equipment left overnight, gathers condensation, that builds to surprising levels of water in the tank, over months.

Full drums in buildings have the least level of problems. 200 litre drums should be laid on their side, if possible, particularly if left outside - but they still need to be treated at all times, as if they have half a litre of water in the bottom.

[skippydiesel]

Plastic "Jerry cans" from Bunnings Aerospace - cheap (were $19), robust, no rust or H2O and you will be able to decant in 20 L doses (makes fuel calculations nice and easy as long as you just fill 20 L/can). Easy to handle, air tight, so very unlikely to degrade (within 6 moths +). I would still recommend filling the aircraft using a filter funnel (just to minimise any chance of contamination of on board filter system.)

 

200 L drums are hard to move around (unless you have a FEL, forklift or similar) and once below 70% full will allow fuel to degrade and condensation will start to collect in the bottom. 200L drums are notorious for having faulty "bung" seals allowing fuel vapour out and water vapour in.

[Guest Machtuk]

Plastic "Jerry cans" from Bunnings Aerospace - cheap (were $19), robust, no rust or H2O and you will be able to decant in 20 L doses (makes fuel calculations nice and easy as long as you just fill 20 L/can). Easy to handle, air tight, so very unlikely to degrade (within 6 moths +). I would still recommend filling the aircraft using a filter funnel (just to minimise any chance of contamination of on board filter system.)

 

200 L drums are hard to move around (unless you have a FEL, forklift or similar) and once below 70% full will allow fuel to degrade and condensation will start to collect in the bottom. 200L drums are notorious for having faulty "bung" seals allowing fuel vapour out and water vapour in.

 

That's all I use, plastic Jerry's (where I can) for all the reasons you mention inc a double filtered funnel.

[Old Koreelah]

Water sits at the bottom !.

spacesailor

That makes sense, but I haven't seen a drum pump that reaches the bottom- leaving the last few litres.

[onetrack]

Old K - I have some 200L drum pumps with adjustable spears, they can be made to touch the bottom of drums.

[Flying Binghi]

Haven’t used 44’s in years though I’ve still got the drum pump with its attached water trap/dirt filter.

 

Water you can drain out though grit mainly just sits all over the bottom of the tank until stirred up by flight.

 

Far as I’m concerned, after using drummed ‘farmer fuel supplies’ and seeing the dirt coming through the pre-flight fuel drain checks, it were mandatory to bring me own filtered pump system along - strapped it to the skids..?

 

 

 

 

.

[facthunter]

Safest is to stick to the NEW drums and use them ONCE for aviation purposes with the fuel already in them (and a release note).. With plastic I would be concerned about some elements of the container mixing with the fuel unless it was a specially made for use with petrol/fuels product. There's also a static electricity consideration. Plastic is good IF it's the right stuff. Keep the rubbish out of the tank in the first place rather than total reliance on in-line filters..Nev

[Thruster88]

I use one of these filters. It will stop all crap and water.

[kaz3g]

Cant see a problem with a bit of oil in the drum, Most Lycoming I've flown behind absolutely love burning oil, you can tell that by the amount that has to be added to the sump.

 

Not as much as Gipsy’s ?

 

With the upside down 4 stroke it’s a case of check the fuel and fill up the oil.

 

Provided it’s a lighter grade of Lubricating oil and there is only a small amount of it, I can’t see an issue, either. Just a bit of upper cylinder lube. 500 ML in 200 litres is a 1:400 mix.