Honest posting versus secretive and corresponding impact on learning/ safety.

[Mike Gearon]

I’ve just joined the microlight forum. Unlike here it seems more guarded. Granted I’ve only started looking around their the last few days. I wrote up the following. I’ve decided to be Hurtle there. The last thing you do in an ultralight is Hurtle around so I kind of like the juxtaposition of the name and the activity.

 

More and more keen on flying the light weight open planes. It’s much more in touch with the air around you. Feeling the airspeed pickup on your face is very addictive.....

KEEP IN MIND THE FOLLOWING IS NOT THIS WEBSITE. IT’S AN ULTRALIGHT FORUM THAT SEEMS TO ME TO BE UK BASED. IF BELOW IS VALID IT ALSO HELPS COMFIRM WHAT A VALUABLE RESOURCE THIS WEBSITE IS!

 

If there’s one thing I’m sure of it’s this..... Shared experience of both aircraft and pilot problems leads to safer flying.

 

I’d like to share my background then make an observation to be either agreed with or disclaimed. Your call!

 

My background flying experience is GA in USA, LSA in Australia and then Ultralights in Phillipines. I’m Australian and I guess part American through living in the states, working with and marrying an American during the last two decades.

 

What I’m puzzled about is seeing reluctance here to share the gritty information. The “oh, I buggered that up” as relates to flying and aircraft. Now, I’m making a sweeping generalisation here which is of course ridiculous. There’ll be all sorts of shades of gray.

 

My concern started when reading the Skyranger posts. One individual had been castigated by other members of a syndicate for open discussion. I then started to look elsewhere and see holes where fact should be. Not always as mentioned previously. However, it seems to be there.

 

I’ve also lived in the UK for some years and familiar with the touch the side of your nose to indicate a withheld fact or secret. Done in fun I understand. So, do I read and post with my usual candour or join the tread lightly folk? I’m unsure. I’ll poke around a bit and see what comes of this post. It’s a big deal really. It relates to both safety in the air through experience and conversely it relates to safety from being sued if somebody can track down your proven incompetence. I get the reluctance. One competes against the other. Which is winning here?

[old man emu]

If you write up an "Geez I F'd up there" story on this site 95% of the members will reply "Thanks for pointing that out" and leave it at that.

4% will reply, "You're a dickhead, but I bet you won't do that again"

1% will make a smart rsed response or a joke.

 

That leaves no one to dob you in to CAS or RAAus.

Edited March 28, 2020 by Admin

[facthunter]

I'd never try to teach someone "how to land" on a forum.. Having seen and done lot's of them they are all different and a bit of advice can be erroneously applied with unhappy results. Saying to keep FLYING it through the landing is general and perhaps good advice of a general nature if you've been going ….close throttle, 123 pull..

My theme is NEVER stop learning, which I strongly believe.. Someone who knows everything limit's further knowledge coming to him/her and therefore going from him/her.. Watch out for Guru's and the Ace of the Base. It's how the wings work the wind not the size of the ego.. Be candid always. Otherwise we are wasting our time here, and an aeroplane is an aeroplane. They ALL behave in response to the same Laws and gravity .As to effing it up proper. MOST think it will never happen to them and what really happened is only known to the Pilot often so we should JUDGE less harshly if WE expect an understanding of or own situations .

Like Golf, (which I hate passionately) the better the technique and the more you practice the luckier you get and the better your score. Nev

Edited March 28, 2020 by facthunter

[Bruce Tuncks]

Most of the time I advocate to tell nothing. This site being an exception, but you still can't know for sure that the forces of darkness are not monitoring the site. So what about telling the story as a hypothetical or as something that happened to an anonymous mate?

 

The RAAus claim that they will not do retribution against honest reporting, and I reckon that they mostly believe this.

But there was a story about a flying-school owner who dutifully reported every little thing after being told that this was the right thing to do. Well one day he got a hostile official visitation from CASA and why? Because he had more incidents than anybody else.

[poteroo]

Well one day he got a hostile official visitation from CASA and why? Because he had more incidents than anybody else

 

For the same reason, many owners & operators are reluctlant to enter maintenance issues, no matter how small, onto an aircrafts' Maintenance Release. Any later 'official' investigation involving the aircraft leads to inspection of the aircraft logbooks plus all the retained MRs. One, (no names) company that I flew with used to have what was known as a Snag Sheet - onto which we rookie pilots were told to enter all of these 'less serious' items rather than onto the MR. A different era!

 

happy days,

[facthunter]

A maintenance release has a pretty important function. Until it's signed off the aircraft may be unairworthy. Nev

[Guest Machtuk]

A maintenance release has a pretty important function. Until it's signed off the aircraft may be unairworthy. Nev

 

It's a mysterious document to be left alone mostly!? A document that's potentially recriminating! Plenty are as clean as the day they where issued!?

[turboplanner]

It's a mysterious document to be left alone mostly!? A document that's potentially recriminating! Plenty are as clean as the day they where issued!?

That's quite a telling comment for the GA world.

[SplitS]

Tell the bastards nothing. The Ozzie system is nothing like the FAA

 

"The FAA believes that aviation safety is well served by incentives for operators to identify and correct their own instances of noncompliance, and to invest more resources in efforts to preclude their recurrence. FAA's policy of forgoing civil penalty actions when a covered entity detects violations, promptly discloses the violations to the FAA, and takes rapid corrective action to ensure that the same or similar violations do not recur, is designed to encourage compliance with the FAA's regulations, foster safe operating practices, and promote the development of Internal Evaluation Programs."

 

This is why the FAA has a much more open dialogue. Simples

[Mike Gearon]

Tell the bastards nothing. The Ozzie system is nothing like the FAA

 

"The FAA believes that aviation safety is well served by incentives for operators to identify and correct their own instances of noncompliance, and to invest more resources in efforts to preclude their recurrence. FAA's policy of forgoing civil penalty actions when a covered entity detects violations, promptly discloses the violations to the FAA, and takes rapid corrective action to ensure that the same or similar violations do not recur, is designed to encourage compliance with the FAA's regulations, foster safe operating practices, and promote the development of Internal Evaluation Programs."

 

This is why the FAA has a much more open dialogue. Simples

That’s what I was seeing in USA. Bloody impressed overall.

[Student Pilot]

Error

[facthunter]

Offence of Strict Liability. Fined $1,000 and 50 penalty points and leave Aviation under 94A. Nev

[Yenn]

We have a system whereby you can post your mistakes and not be held liable. I have used it and heard nothing from the powers that be. Once posted you are supposedly not liable to prosecution, unless of course it was a blatant breaking of the rules.

[Old Koreelah]

...If there’s one thing I’m sure of it’s this..... Shared experience of both aircraft and pilot problems leads to safer flying...

 

What I’m puzzled about is seeing reluctance here to share the gritty information. The “oh, I buggered that up” as relates to flying and aircraft...

Good points, Mike. You're right that some who post on here have copped a bit of flack, but mostly if they hadn't seemed to recognise the error of their ways.

 

In Australia we love to criticise the authorities -it's almost a requirement for getting citizenship- and CASA gets plenty.

However, in defence of our aviation regulator, they also encourage pilots to be candid about their mistakes, so that others can learn the lesson. They even pay you $500 to tell the story of how you stuffed up.

I wrote one these stories:

https://www.flightsafetyaustralia.com/closecalls/

[Mike Gearon]

Good points, Mike. You're right that some who post on here have copped a bit of flack, but mostly if they hadn't seemed to recognise the error of their ways.

 

In Australia we love to criticise the authorities -it's almost a requirement for getting citizenship- and CASA gets plenty.

However, in defence of our aviation regulator, they also encourage pilots to be candid about their mistakes, so that others can learn the lesson. They even pay you $500 to tell the story of how you stuffed up.

I wrote one these stories:

https://www.flightsafetyaustralia.com/closecalls/

So, if you’re busy discussing how you love to buzz the neighbours while tracking undulating terrain at 100ft AGL it’s not going to go well for you. I read a couple of those in the accident reports.

 

One could infer that a few people are even still breathing/ flying because they pushed the limits here and pulled back. That’d be a win.

 

The $500 is a great idea. It’d be interesting to play find the Old Koreelah story ? I’ll hope to never add a story. I have my own story but it’s not worth writing up. Just a problem of anatomy leading to control surface problems. More simply... my stupid big feet and long legs meant over a long cross country my feet were riding up rudder pedals and I took off and landed a few times with really bad rudder control. Went a bit wrong and could have been much worse for a few take offs and landings before I figured it out. It definitely wasn’t in the manuals and wasn’t on anything I’d read. I always wiggle rudder pedals and check heel position now.

 

I noticed on a Brit site they referred to CHIRP with a similar function.

[facthunter]

Good stuff. Read them all if you've got the time. Nev

[Student Pilot]

We all make mistakes Nev, once I thought I was wrong, but I was mistaken ?

[Yenn]

It used to be much easier in the old days to read about others mistakes. I miss the Aviation Safety Digest.

The safety occurrences on RAAus website are pretty useless to learn anything from.

As for general posting on this site, it is obvious some people have an agenda, some people are rank amateurs and some have something worth saying. You just have to work out which is which.

[pmccarthy]

There is one of mine there too - title is Light Bulb Moment. I enjoyed getting $500.

[Guest Machtuk]

I loved the old crash comics, sadly it's not the same, pilots crash differently these days, there's no honor in it anymore??

[Guest Machtuk]

There is one of mine there too - title is Light Bulb Moment. I enjoyed getting $500.

 

A retractable Archer?...lolol??

Good article?

[Old Koreelah]

...The $500 is a great idea. It’d be interesting to play find the Old Koreelah story...

Go ahead, Mike. I bet you can't find it among the plethora of stories.

 

...

I’ll hope to never add a story. I have my own story but it’s not worth writing up. Just a problem of anatomy leading to control surface problems. More simply... my stupid big feet and long legs meant over a long cross country my feet were riding up rudder pedals and I took off and landed a few times with really bad rudder control...

 

You're not Robinson Crusoe! I've had lots of similar problems. My long frame doesn't fit into quite a few aircraft that I'd like to fly. One that I squeezed into had crappy plastic seats, leading to a pinched nerve before I even got airbourne. Lots of fun landing a Thruster with no feeling in your feet!

[facthunter]

Whoever's responsible for those pinched nerves must have a lot of nerve. A rudder POSITION indicator might help .Nev

[IBob]

Whoever's responsible for those pinched nerves must have a lot of nerve. A rudder POSITION indicator might help .Nev

You mean one that tells you when the rudder is in front of the rest of the aircraft???........

[M61A1]

That's quite a telling comment for the GA world.

And a sad indictment of CASA and their overly complex, unnecessarily rigid system.