Jacobs Well incident 5th April 2020

[FlyBoy1960]

Hello Mike, all good information but this engine didnt have floats. It was the 912iS fuel injected engine, and i repeat the engine sounded fine for the take-off

[Old Koreelah]

Good info, Mike. This issue was the focus of discussion a few years back, with regard to Rotax carbs.

Although Jabiru's have the same unit, I haven't heard any mention of float problems with them. Have you?

[kgwilson]

Jabirus have Bing pressure compensating carburettors.

[FlyBoy1960]

The floats in Rotax engines have been subject to about 3 x SB in recent years. I am told they finally have them fixed however.

[jackc]

Mmmm......went to MSA web site for Rotax carby floats. Nothing?

[Thruster88]

Hello Mike, all good information but this engine didnt have floats. It was the 912iS fuel injected engine, and i repeat the engine sounded fine for the take-off

 

I assume the ECU will store any faults. Anyone know what data and for how long is logged?

[Old Koreelah]

Jabirus have Bing pressure compensating carburettors.

Yes KG, but do they have the same float problems?

[jackc]

The floats in Rotax engines have been subject to about 3 x SB in recent years. I am told they finally have them fixed however.

 

Well

The floats in Rotax engines have been subject to about 3 x SB in recent years. I am told they finally have them fixed however.

 

Well, that’s a good hint for me, my aircraft has not flown for a long time (that I know of). So I should get service kits for my 80hp Rotax and include floats.

[M61A1]

Well

 

 

Well, that’s a good hint for me, my aircraft has not flown for a long time (that I know of). So I should get service kits for my 80hp Rotax and include floats.

Check the SBs first you may well find your serial is outside the range of those affected. Weighing the floats is the test to see if they’re ok.

[BLA82]

The general rule of thumb for burns is, that you add the percentage of burns to the age of the person, and if the total number is over 100, then the chances of the burns victim surviving are slim.

In this case, I'd have to opine the prognosis is grim. Many severe burns victims survive for 3 to 4 weeks before they succumb.

What a absolute sh..t comment to make mate, wake up to yourself.

[Mike Gearon]

Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. Seems the original poster would deeply regret the comments and would wish the post away if possible. That would make this post bullying. Haven’t seen it since school quite some years ago so I’m a bit rusty on bullying. Hence the question.

[facthunter]

Check how the float, floats. It should be buoyant enough to easily close the needle. If it's a brass one it can leak at a pinhole in the solder. Plastic ones can go soft , expand and Jamb or absorb fuel .

IF the fuel run is subject to heat, (not uncommon) some of the volatiles can boil and form bubbles in the bowl which makes the fuel less dense and the carburettor floods when the float sinks.. Checking it later finds nothing wrong. Lag your fuel lines and make sure no exhaust leaks and use heatshields if in doubt. Nev

[Aldo]

OK then, if pilots operating at the airfield are aware of all them wires around the airfield then why are aircraft still flying from the airfield ?...?

 

 

Power checks can be done rolling if you are familiar with what to expect re revs etc.

 

 

 

.

Because they are not a problem

[Aldo]

Having seen the accident with my own eyes its terrible to see the comments, assumptions and descriptions of what you keyboard wannabe pilots are talking about.

 

Its absolute rubbish, you are so far from the facts that’s its hardly worth replying.

 

You might as well say the plane was returning from an orbit of Mars, did a flypast in front of 27 pregnant women and a maggot chewed the wing off. This is about as accurate as what diatribe is being hypothesised here.

 

Remember, other people, including family can read this and it screws with their heads when you have burns survival theories of adding this with that and that’s when you will die !

 

C’mon, be respectful and responsible, wait a few weeks until we can talk.

 

We can’t talk now because we will pollute other witnesses who have not recorded statements yet.

Flyboy

 

If you have information that would get the topic on track and have reliable information you should post it so that people are no longer guessing. You are promoting the guessing game which is obviously disturbing you (from your post) by not putting the correct eye witness account of what happened, not saying what happened is just promoting circumspectural comment.

 

Aldo

[Blueadventures]

Flyboy

 

If you have information that would get the topic on track and have reliable information you should post it so that people are no longer guessing. You are promoting the guessing game which is obviously disturbing you (from your post) by not putting the correct eye witness account of what happened, not saying what happened is just promoting circumspectural comment.

 

Aldo

I believe he has said as much as he can / wants to at the moment. I recall he said something along the lines that he gave his statement of what he witnessed and did not want to promote any observation that may be repeated by others; bit like when getting witness statements they are split up so you get only their memory of their observations.

[FlyBoy1960]

Correct, we have been told we cant talk to avoid polluting other peoples statements who are yet to be interviewed by the Police.

 

We all got an email about this today as a reminder, i am happy to say hello but cant give anymore details, sorry.

[onetrack]

Re the snide comment about "burns survival theories" - I can assure Flyboy1960, my burns survival potential comment is no theory, it is widely accepted in medical practice, and it's known as the Baux Score.

However, in recent times, with improving burns treatment methods, and fast action in getting burns victims to major hospitals, the Baux score has proven to be somewhat pessimistic.

Our own Dr Fiona Wood has been an outstanding medical leader in the improved treatment of burns, and has produced a correspondingly higher survival rate. She was responsible for the survival of a lot of Bali Bombing victims.

[walrus]

I hope the survivor makes a good recovery.

 

Three points that might or might not be relevant:

 

1. With a constant speed prop, the engine can often make rated rpm but produce little power. Manifold pressure won’t tell you. You have to check fuel flow to confirm you are making rated power. Flow would be about 23l/h at 5800 full power. Mere engine noise won’t tell you much. Furthermore, if the prop is installed and adjusted correctly, you should be able to take off on the full coarse pitch stop at the cost of overloading the engine.

 

2. When the aircraft takes off it is flying relatively easily in ground effect until it reaches about 1.5 times wingspan. Climbing above that depends on power available and aircraft weight.

 

3. I have a 912iS, not yet flying, it has lots of redundancy. About the only things, I think, that might go wrong absent complete mechanical collapse, are air and fuel flow. On my aircraft, shutting the fuel cutoff stops the engine in about two seconds. Rotax normally supplies two fuel pumps in one assembly. Provided both were on for takeoff there shouldn’t be a fuel problem unless there was a restriction like a clogged filter(gascolator and high pressure filter) or water somewhere. The pumps and ignition use generator A and if that fails there is instantaneous switch over to generator B so if the engine was turning the pumps were running.

 

Assuming the Aircraft had an EFIS, you would expect voltage and fuel pressure warnings.

[old man emu]

What a absolute sh..t comment to make mate, wake up to yourself.

 

MODERATOR'S COMMENT:

This comment was reported to Moderators for being rude and nasty. The way BLA82 expressed his disagreement with OneTrack did not advance the discussion.

 

It is perfectly OK to disagree with other people, but firstly, do it politely, and secondly, put something down that supports the reasons for your disagreement. By doing so, you advance the discussion. In this case a simple "Are you sure about that?" posed to OneTrack would have elicited the response as given in Post #142.

 

So, argue your case fervently. Attack the content. Play the ball, not the man.

 

Old Man Emu

[Bruce Tuncks]

I agree OME. Not necessary and I wonder if it is even correct. Certainly too nasty.

[Mike Gearon]

MODERATOR'S COMMENT:

People I know and mix with just don’t talk like this. Maybe it’s my problem.

 

I was also taken aback yesterday when I noticed a onetrack comment on pilots bodies in another incident discussion. Was admittedly insensitive and his post above I thought was an apology and explanation of hope. Reading it again it’s not really saying that or apologising. I don’t understand it either. Might be related to a work attitude and it just delivers here in the wrong way. Who knows.

 

I’m reasonably new to the site and I’ll step away from this. It’s why you go slow and I’ve been trying to.

Edited April 15, 2020 by Mike Gearon

[pmccarthy]

It seems the confinement is affecting some of us. Some well known and interesting posters are becoming less polite. I have to stop myself from posting of an evening after a few reds as I may regret it next morning.

[Mike Gearon]

MODERATOR'S COMMENT:

This comment was reported to Moderators for being rude and nasty. The way BLA82 expressed his disagreement with OneTrack did not advance the discussion.

 

It is perfectly OK to disagree with other people, but firstly, do it politely, and secondly, put something down that supports the reasons for your disagreement. By doing so, you advance the discussion. In this case a simple "Are you sure about that?" posed to OneTrack would have elicited the response as given in Post #142.

 

So, argue your case fervently. Attack the content. Play the ball, not the man.

 

Old Man Emu

Maybe you could delete my comment above and this one. Up to you.... I’ll explain....It was made when your post appeared without content. Really took me by surprise because it seemed to be saying “Onetrack, you’ve commented and this is what I think” that, being the comment from BLA82.

 

Now your comment has the content you intended (which I might add is well put) my comment is out of place. Whew!

[old man emu]

Sorry about the first blank post. I hit the wrong key and didn't realise that people were hanging on my every word.

 

I won't recommend that your posts be deleted. I support your right to state your opinion within the confines of the rules of this site. Your positive reaction to my completed post was what we are all seeking from users here.

 

Now, back to business ...

[Mike Gearon]

Wasn’t hanging on your every word. I just happened to complete the morning Taiwan rooftop ritual of coffee with Wall Street journal then Rec Flyer check in before getting to work. All good. I’ll get back to work now. Probably lucky I’m in Taiwan and it’s business as usual with just temp checks on getting to work and strict mask on policy around people.