Jacobs Well incident 5th April 2020

[Methusala]

Would be an impossible task to aim under powerlines if trees were on the following trajectory. Pilot would have been wishing for power to come back on as he approached them. Partial loss of power on takeoff leaves us in uncharted territory in the absence of an imprinted plan, well rehearsed before commencement of the flight. "Be prepared".

[facthunter]

Climbing over trees on take off is always a bit of a gamble. You can easily get some weird orographic effects. Nev

[kgwilson]

Based on the photos and my logic I would say that he had full power on takeoff but at maybe 50 feet lost enough of it so the aircraft would not climb & only just enough to keep airborne. The entire flight was only a few seconds. There would have been no time to react to the situation other than try & get down a best he could & turning left to try to land on the road was the only possibility as he could see the road clearly from the pilots seat. There was certainly no time to do anything else.

[FlyBoy1960]

Having seen the accident with my own eyes its terrible to see the comments, assumptions and descriptions of what you keyboard wannabe pilots are talking about.

 

Its absolute rubbish, you are so far from the facts that’s its hardly worth replying.

 

You might as well say the plane was returning from an orbit of Mars, did a flypast in front of 27 pregnant women and a maggot chewed the wing off. This is about as accurate as what diatribe is being hypothesised here.

 

Remember, other people, including family can read this and it screws with their heads when you have burns survival theories of adding this with that and that’s when you will die !

 

C’mon, be respectful and responsible, wait a few weeks until we can talk.

 

We can’t talk now because we will pollute other witnesses who have not recorded statements yet.

[turboplanner]

Post deleted for attacking another site user - Admin

Edited April 9, 2020 by Admin

[Harro]

Having seen the accident with my own eyes its terrible to see the comments, assumptions and descriptions of what you keyboard wannabe pilots are talking about.

 

Its absolute rubbish, you are so far from the facts that’s its hardly worth replying.

 

You might as well say the plane was returning from an orbit of Mars, did a flypast in front of 27 pregnant women and a maggot chewed the wing off. This is about as accurate as what diatribe is being hypothesised here.

 

Remember, other people, including family can read this and it screws with their heads when you have burns survival theories of adding this with that and that’s when you will die !

 

C’mon, be respectful and responsible, wait a few weeks until we can talk.

 

We can’t talk now because we will pollute other witnesses who have not recorded statements yet.

It is particularly disconcerting when experienced pilots come to grief. You have the dubious experience of having witnessed this particular incident, so probably have a better idea of what may have occurred. From my reading of all the previous posts, no one is saying what 'did' happen, only what 'might' have gone so catastrophically wrong in this instance, absent corroborating information. I think I speak for all when I say that no disrespect is intended toward those involved, their families and friends.

 

I am a relatively low-hours 'wannabe' pilot (but I don't hit the keyboard very often :) ), and it concerns me greatly every time I read of yet another light aircraft accident, often with very experienced pilots at the helm. What is it that rears up and bites them on the arse??? Again... and again... and again. Allow me to gain the most benefit from others mistakes by considering at length what 'might' have gone so wrong. Personally I feel that contemplating numerous possible scenarios significantly lessens the chance of my making fatal errors in future.

 

As a side note, I would have refrained from highlighting that line above in bold red type... that is much more likely to be read by anyone perusing this forum, rather than commentary buried within a paragraph in normal type font. I understand the need for sensitivity in posting, but that needs to be balanced with the intent to educate other forumites. I assume the poster in question has some experience with burn injuries, and I now know something I didn't know before.

 

No offence intended, and posted with respect for all.... particularly those numerous experienced 'keyboard wannabe pilot' forum members who contribute so much to this site by sharing their collective, often hard-earned wisdom.

[Fred]

Is partial power loss on take off taught and later emphasised on BFR's.? .I have my doubts.

 

I guess it would depend on the particular school Nev. for example the CFI where I have done my BFRs for the last 10+ years, includes a partial engine failure on take off in every BFR.

[Jerry_Atrick]

Having seen the accident with my own eyes its terrible to see the comments, assumptions and descriptions of what you keyboard wannabe pilots are talking about.

 

Its absolute rubbish, you are so far from the facts that’s its hardly worth replying.

 

You might as well say the plane was returning from an orbit of Mars, did a flypast in front of 27 pregnant women and a maggot chewed the wing off. This is about as accurate as what diatribe is being hypothesised here.

 

Remember, other people, including family can read this and it screws with their heads when you have burns survival theories of adding this with that and that’s when you will die !

 

C’mon, be respectful and responsible, wait a few weeks until we can talk.

 

We can’t talk now because we will pollute other witnesses who have not recorded statements yet.

I whole heartedly agree...

 

BTW, I have no problem with uninformed speculation - I do it myself... But I am clear that in the absence of facts, from what I have seen, these are POSSIBLE theories..

 

But when the guy who owns the site says this: "ENOUGH...the topic of this thread and the two unfortunate fellow aviators do not deserve this kind of posting" and from the posts I saw, I have to agree, it exceeded deceny.

 

Berearved may not expressly come to this or any other site for information - but a google search will direct them here...

[Bruce Tuncks]

I think that we have not been given enough information. Speculation is the result of this and I agree that this is not fair on the families of the pilots involved.

[Mike Gearon]

It is particularly disconcerting when experienced pilots come to grief. You have the dubious experience of having witnessed this particular incident, so probably have a better idea of what may have occurred. From my reading of all the previous posts, no one is saying what 'did' happen, only what 'might' have gone so catastrophically wrong in this instance, absent corroborating information. I think I speak for all when I say that no disrespect is intended toward those involved, their families and friends.

 

I am a relatively low-hours 'wannabe' pilot (but I don't hit the keyboard very often :) ), and it concerns me greatly every time I read of yet another light aircraft accident, often with very experienced pilots at the helm. What is it that rears up and bites them on the ****??? Again... and again... and again. Allow me to gain the most benefit from others mistakes by considering at length what 'might' have gone so wrong. Personally I feel that contemplating numerous possible scenarios significantly lessens the chance of my making fatal errors in future.

 

As a side note, I would have refrained from highlighting that line above in bold red type... that is much more likely to be read by anyone perusing this forum, rather than commentary buried within a paragraph in normal type font. I understand the need for sensitivity in posting, but that needs to be balanced with the intent to educate other forumites. I assume the poster in question has some experience with burn injuries, and I now know something I didn't know before.

 

No offence intended, and posted with respect for all.... particularly those numerous experienced 'keyboard wannabe pilot' forum members who contribute so much to this site by sharing their collective, often hard-earned wisdom.

Well said. I was upset seeing the post and wanted to consider a response/ give the forum away/ consider it more.

 

I’m in a very similar position hours wise. I’m hopefully getting the right amount of worry into my takeoffs including a steady aloud or internal discussion on abort on runway, land straight ahead and 30 degrees or return with a visual map ahead of me as I go through. I had one FI pull power after take off. In cornfield country so it was a pretty easy decision on straight ahead. I thought it was real and did okay.

 

So, the good part is obviously keeping these foremost in our thinking and this thread like many others could save a life or lives.

 

The bad is well explained in the angry post. I’m new and trying to go slow and behave (believe it or not) I’d also not seen the note from admin. Missed it completely and surprised to find after flyboy posted and I went back.

 

I’ll take this as a learning experience and try hard to be respectful of all involved. Hopefully the passenger in care will make a full recovery. My thoughts are with the family and also with the family of the pilot who lost his life.

 

I’ll also apologise for my contribution as a keyboard pilot. As you’ve indicated (flyboy) the plane was turning left. I was a little hung up on the incorrect roads reported and thought that was contributing to speculation of a turn. Not the case.

[derekliston]

I will absolutely not speculate on what happened, I will just tell of an experience I had with a partial engine failure on take-off from Warwick, Qld. I was on runway 27 and the engine was making 3000rpm and so I rolled, the 701, even on just 80hp is off the ground and climbing in very short order. At about 300ft the revs suddenly dropped back to 1600, I pulled the power back to idle, put the nose down and landed on the remaining runway. Two pilots watching from the ground told me later that the exhaust was chuffing out black smoke, so I had made the correct decision and that they thought I was going to bend it! I didn’t and the problem turned out to be a blocked air filter, never did find out why it was blocked, apparently with carbon and it has not recurred. Lesson to me, always better safe than sorry!

[Blueadventures]

I guess it would depend on the particular school Nev. for example the CFI where I have done my BFRs for the last 10+ years, includes a partial engine failure on take off in every BFR.

Agree, where I go, three areas rolling, below 500 agl and above 500ft.

[Methusala]

Pilots read these posts. We all want the best for our fellows. This forum is an educative, information exchange. I have never posted anything that I believe to be disrespectful to unfortunate victims of fate. All pilots who read these reports wish only to expand their knowledge and, hopefully, to avoid making mistakes. I wish that all of our fellow forumites would take these posts in the generous manner in which, I believe, they are posted.

[M61A1]

You might as well say the plane was returning from an orbit of Mars, did a flypast in front of 27 pregnant women and a maggot chewed the wing off. This is about as accurate as what diatribe is being hypothesised here.

Given that we haven't found new ways to kill ourselves while flying since somewhere around the thirties, I get the impression that while most will say they want to "learn" from the incident. The reality is that its just a macabre fascination, some schadenfreude and a desire to be right.

Everyone puts forward their theory, and when and if the investigation is complete, someone will get to say "I knew it! ... I told you so".

[Flying Binghi]

Given that we haven't found new ways to kill ourselves while flying since somewhere around the thirties, I get the impression that while most will say they want to "learn" from the incident. The reality is that its just a macabre fascination, some schadenfreude and a desire to be right.

Everyone puts forward their theory, and when and if the investigation is complete, someone will get to say "I knew it! ... I told you so".

 

You got that right.

 

 

 

 

 

.

[facthunter]

Of course it will depend on the individual school but I suggest more emphasis is needed on PARTIAL power loss. Some think "give the engine time and it may clear itself". You don't apply that "logic" to flying. I recall aborting a take off and the CFI went around telling everybody he couldn't understand what I was doing.

SAFETY is behind what I post on this forum . I don't suggest difficulties mentioned relate to a Particular event but may in similar situations. No one can know what really happens in many cases, other than the pilot(s) involved, unless there's a lot of high quality data available. Often with U/L's there isn't. There is a tendency to blame the pilot without knowing all the relevant circumstances of the event. That's happened for a long time and most likely won't change much, humans being what they are. AGAIN what I say is GENERAL and NOT related directly to this accident.

M61A1. I'm not quite that HARD about it but some (who may be somewhat fearful of flight) NEED to think "accidents ONLY happen to others. Not to Me" Most wish to benefit from the lessons one can learn from other's bad experiences if possible.. Nev

[Blueadventures]

Given that we haven't found new ways to kill ourselves while flying since somewhere around the thirties, I get the impression that while most will say they want to "learn" from the incident. The reality is that its just a macabre fascination, some schadenfreude and a desire to be right.

Everyone puts forward their theory, and when and if the investigation is complete, someone will get to say "I knew it! ... I told you so".

I am sure the majority of us (myself included) look forward to the findings as such in the past have identified reasons that include airframe, engine, control system, fuel system , compliancy on the pilots part or distractions to the pilot by passenger occupying the other seat and many others. These can then be reminders and learnings to all pilots and to some extent non pilot passengers thereby making our maintenance, D I'm and flying safer. IMHO.

[Methusala]

The reality is that its just a macabre fascination, some schadenfreude and a desire to be right.

Everyone puts forward their theory, and when and if the investigation is complete, someone will get to say "I knew it! ... I told you so".

I've not seen evidence of this.

[M61A1]

I've not seen evidence of this.

Honestly??? Have you read any of the accident and incident threads on here?

[Mike Gearon]

Given that we haven't found new ways to kill ourselves while flying since somewhere around the thirties, I get the impression that while most will say they want to "learn" from the incident. The reality is that its just a macabre fascination, some schadenfreude and a desire to be right.

Everyone puts forward their theory, and when and if the investigation is complete, someone will get to say "I knew it! ... I told you so".

It’d be nice if that wasn’t true.

 

When I was learning to fly there had been an incident at Tooradin somewhat recent past. The pilot bounced then proceeded to porpoise and screwed up the plane. I both distressed and then impressed my FI very early in lessons with a fairly decent bounce and power on go round. Had the pilots accident well learned and procedure ready. I’d really hope that is what’s happening here. Either learning or refreshing rules to fly by.

[facthunter]

I encountered my first decent Bounce and powered recovery and go around on my first solo in a Chipmunk. Could have been (WAS actually) very dangerous as it's delicate job to manage at any time once you get out of shape and very slow near the ground, but I had very little time up and wasn't ready for it.. I only used the amount of back stick I always had done but this time there was NO instructor in the REAR seat and the flare was quite different to what I had become used to.

Result I've always gone to great pains to tell students of the effects of having NO instructor weight wise on the way the plane's going to fly LONG before they go solo.. Nev

[IBob]

"Result I've always gone to great pains to tell students of the effects of having NO instructor weight wise on the way the plane's going to fly LONG before they go solo.. Nev ".............................

 

And the effect is even more dramatic in a microlight, Nev. As I'm sure you know.

[facthunter]

Yes Ibob that's when I did it most where even the weight change being a greater % of total weight is very noticeable. Nev.

[jackc]

Well, I have no comment to make......as I have little knowledge. However I am a happy observer in this case, taking in all the comments made by those who know AND have the experience. It’s all learning for me:-)

[Harro]

Given that we haven't found new ways to kill ourselves while flying since somewhere around the thirties, I get the impression that while most will say they want to "learn" from the incident. The reality is that its just a macabre fascination, some schadenfreude and a desire to be right.

Everyone puts forward their theory, and when and if the investigation is complete, someone will get to say "I knew it! ... I told you so".

For me, the focus is on safe operations, and if I can learn from another's mistakes, I will. I don't have an 'I told you so' bone in my body. In a past life, I have been involved in enough aircraft crash recoveries that another person's demise certainly holds no fascination for me. The fact that aircraft fly holds fascination for me... not how they crash. I accept that we are all different, and I think it comes down to personality. The fellow aviators I know are a fairly humble lot.