Jacobs Well incident 5th April 2020

[M61A1]

For me, the focus is on safe operations, and if I can learn from another's mistakes, I will. I don't have an 'I told you so' bone in my body. In a past life, I have been involved in enough aircraft crash recoveries that another person's demise certainly holds no fascination for me. The fact that aircraft fly holds fascination for me... not how they crash. I accept that we are all different, and I think it comes down to personality. The fellow aviators I know are a fairly humble lot.

Don't take it personally, perhaps the post was more about internet forums than aviators., although there is come crossover there.

The old AUF crowd used to be a fairly humble lot, but increasingly I find that trait to be disappearing.

 

Have a trawl back through the accident and incident threads.....you might see what I mean.

 

On the positive side, knowing that if I am to have a bingle, and that on certain internet forums I would be talked about and ridiculed gives me some extra incentive (and I already have considerable incentive) not to roll my plane in a ball..

[facthunter]

The more you know and comprehend the safer and better managed your operation(s) will be. You can and do learn by experience but that takes time and some unnecessary in some cases, element of luck. and therefore risk.. The only good thing that can come out of an accident is to learn from it and modify individual behaviour or the way the system does things. This has happened since MAN first flew when an aviator (then) was akin to an astronaut today. Ease of access may breed a certain (no big deal, what's all the fuss about) attitude but it's big deal WHEN it happens to you because it can end or wreck your life rather quickly. Sharing the information and any analysis of it is a positive outcome that is part of an ongoing process.. The older CASA equivalent's so called "Crash Comic" was invaluable. Flying is not forgiving of errors or mistakes.. Nev

[Admin]

Have the names of the occupants been released yet

[Flying Binghi]

 

...

The old AUF crowd used to be a fairly humble lot, but increasingly I find that trait to be disappearing.

...

 

...?

 

My recollection of ‘back in the day’ were a bit different.

 

From memory it were not above 300’ and not over a public road ...and all pilots followed the regulations scrupulously...?

 

Now days seems some just want to hide at home and peer out from behind the curtains.....

 

 

 

 

.

[FlyBoy1960]

Have the names of the occupants been released yet

 

Yes

[Admin]

Please advise or reply to the Private Message I have sent you

[derekliston]

Please advise or reply to the Private Message I have sent you

Private message to me?

[Griffon]

Given that we haven't found new ways to kill ourselves while flying since somewhere around the thirties, I get the impression that while most will say they want to "learn" from the incident. The reality is that its just a macabre fascination, some schadenfreude and a desire to be right.

Everyone puts forward their theory, and when and if the investigation is complete, someone will get to say "I knew it! ... I told you so".

You're welcome to speak for yourself, but most pilots I know tend toward the problem solving, enquiring mind type and are rather keen not to add to the accident statistics. Trying to learn from the misfortunes and mistakes of others is very much part of the training ethos, from airlines on down to recreational pilots. You may not see any value in it, but I and many others I suspect, do.

[facthunter]

The MAJOR benefit of investigating crashes and incidents is and always has been (in the Industry) to gain the Knowledge to help prevent a repetition of a similar event. Sometimes this goes to a blame game for the vested Interests to indulge in. Ie there's no fault our training system, Planes, oversight process, maintenance and so forth. Then you have the sensation factor It's ANOTHER PLANE crash sketchy report look in the next edition. Breaking News. Latest report etc. Nev

[M61A1]

You're welcome to speak for yourself, but most pilots I know tend toward the problem solving, enquiring mind type and are rather keen not to add to the accident statistics. Trying to learn from the misfortunes and mistakes of others is very much part of the training ethos, from airlines on down to recreational pilots. You may not see any value in it, but I and many others I suspect, do.

I refer you to post #101

[Mike Gearon]

Don't take it personally, perhaps the post was more about internet forums than aviators., although there is come crossover there.

The old AUF crowd used to be a fairly humble lot, but increasingly I find that trait to be disappearing.

 

Have a trawl back through the accident and incident threads.....you might see what I mean.

 

On the positive side, knowing that if I am to have a bingle, and that on certain internet forums I would be talked about and ridiculed gives me some extra incentive (and I already have considerable incentive) not to roll my plane in a ball..

It’s nice to see your rationale expanded upon.Difficult enough with our/ my own internal dialogue without having to consider a fan club cheering on your potential misfortune. These would indeed be keyboard pilots that are nasty people.

 

A note on that internal dialogue and the subject at hand.....

 

I make a living as an inventor. I seem to pretty much the absent minded one portrayed in movies etc. Wasn’t going to take up flying specifically for this reason. However, I just have to do it better. At home and work it’s strict systems that make everyday life work. Transition points from work to gym to home and emails, invoices etc all have a disciplined approach or it’d be impossible. Living in 3 countries has its own nightmares we won’t go into.

 

Anyway, to stay on track here.... I’m really disciplined in my flying procedures. Go through them in the car on way to airport. Plan carefully. Run checklists precisely. All the stuff we are supposed to do. When flying I’m running the numbers near the airport and ground manoeuvres etc and do allow a bit of relax time to just enjoy the scenery when safe to do so. Back to strict routine when required.

 

I’m also on here looking at things that have gone wrong for others as a learning experience and trying to live it with the pilots that suffered the misfortune that ended up with us writing about them. It’s unfortunate that it’s easiest done when the accident is current and I absolutely get that we need to consider the families and friends.

 

Incidents.... The terrible recent 2 plane accident made me decide not to do IFR training when I return to the USA. I have my GA training and I think I have the discipline if caught in cloud to fly instruments out. I’ve run this in my head and just like in the check ride I’d make very small corrections with a relaxed hand. I’d stick almost completely in the instrument scan while getting 180 degreees about and proceeding back and hopefully out of cloud. The way to pretty much guarantee a spiral dive in my mind would be to panic and stare out the window into the gray mist. I guess that happens and it was stressed and imprinted firmly that without recent training we have just a little time before spiral dive. Helicopter pilot in USA as case in point with IFR training. I’ll just stay clear of cloud and check weather as the main plan.

 

The other theme running here is bloody forums. Still the same from when I used to be heavily involved in one.....A small number of prolific posters. A huge number of lookers (I’m not being critical and may return to onlooker) A number of trouble makers, politicians, practical common sense types and the obligatory comedians.

 

I’m unsure about continuing involvement. My personal criteria is if things bother me as a poster and I’m taking them away to worry over then I shouldn’t be involved. The good still outweighs the bad here. The learning and community sharing is here in abundance And likely worth supporting.

[Kiwi]

I refer you to post #101

 

I understood what you meant and agree. Years ago I had a accident and people were saying I was hungover, only had lemonade the night before. People talking crap instead of just asking someone who new what happened first hand.

[facthunter]

Most spectators just watch the landings. I suppose it's the FUN part but really not the major part of the effort.. I was airborne with a pretty good student on one occasion I recall .We were in a Jab 230 which he owned and commented something like I dunno... today I'm not getting on top of this thing like I feel I should be and I replied . "No one else is flying but us. The wind's too strong for the others and look around, where are they? All sitting in the club room waiting for you to muck it up." So we kept up the effort and got somewhere. The other option was to put the plane in the Hangar. IF you only train in ideal conditions, how do you cope with NOT SO ideal conditions? Nev

[Yenn]

Cope is the word when conditions are not so good.

I have been in bad conditions a few times and luckily I have coped, but I have looked back at them and thought, why on earth did I do or not do something or other.

When conditions are bad we revert to handling one thing at a time and other things get left out.

A couple of times I have looked back and realised that I completely ignored radio procedures and it could have been dangerous. I am not talking about weather caused conditions necessarily, you can be stressed in perfect VFR weather.

[facthunter]

Adrenalin helps (FEAR) but it wears off. I suggest the best thing is training and flying within your limits and the planes limits. YOUR limits can vary depending a lot on your physical condition. Tired, dehydrated, hungry, sick, anxious. under /over confident.etc.. IF you aren't performing well the planes limits reduce. Circadian RYTHME.

The body's clock, If you've been working odd shifts or hung over. If your body is at 3 am you are about at your lowest.(thinking and manipulating) levels. Nev

[Griffon]

M61A1 said:

I refer you to post #101

 

I think we're going to have to agree to differ, because I have a sneaking suspicion that you're enjoying riling up the troops more than converting anyone to your viewpoint.

[M61A1]

M61A1 said:

I refer you to post #101

 

I think we're going to have to agree to differ, because I have a sneaking suspicion that you're enjoying riling up the troops more than converting anyone to your viewpoint.

Essentially it's a generalisation, which means that it doesn't mean it applies to everyone, but if you go back through the accident and incident threads, not only here but other sites too, you will see that some voice concern for those involved. Meanwhile there while be some that are downright accusatory, there will be arguments about what happened and why it happened and what the punishment should be....all barely before an investigation has started, let alone been completed.

 

We got to page two of discussion on this thread before it was openly suggested that the pilot was flying illegally. The veiled suggestion was only a few posts in from the start.

 

I urge to to go through and have a good read and see if you still believe that most or all of those in the discussion think they would learn something that would help them fly safer.

[Flying Binghi]

 

.....

 

The other theme running here is bloody forums. Still the same from when I used to be heavily involved in one.....A small number of prolific posters. A huge number of lookers (I’m not being critical and may return to onlooker) A number of trouble makers, politicians, practical common sense types and the obligatory comedians.

 

I’m unsure about continuing involvement. My personal criteria is if things bother me as a poster and I’m taking them away to worry over then I shouldn’t be involved. The good still outweighs the bad here. The learning and community sharing is here in abundance And likely worth supporting.

 

.....?

 

For starters, do what your flying instructor taught ya and follow the POH of the aircraft and you carn’t go to far wrong..?

 

If yer not ‘worrying’ about something to do with flying then yer not learning and shouldn’t be a pilot..?

 

 

 

 

 

.

[Jase T]

Adrenalin helps (FEAR) but it wears off. I suggest the best thing is training and flying within your limits and the planes limits. YOUR limits can vary depending a lot on your physical condition. Tired, dehydrated, hungry, sick, anxious. under /over confident.etc.. IF you aren't performing well the planes limits reduce. Circadian RYTHME.

The body's clock, If you've been working odd shifts or hung over. If your body is at 3 am you are about at your lowest.(thinking and manipulating) levels. Nev

 

I remember being told once your brain has the processing power of a 286 computer (and I am sure my memory has been reduced by too many Merlots over the years) and it's easy to overload it in a high workload environment. I do feel everyone need to oexperience flying at the limits of their ability (in a safe way) so that you can recognize the symptoms of "Task saturation". for me it is a narrowing of the field of vision (I am aware of it and can recognise it) to focus on what I am doing only and missing small side tasks such as config / lighting changes or even missing a CTAF call from another aircraft. I have flown single-pilot IFR in helicopters and recognized it was happening and I can tell you knowing when you are at your limits can save your life! I have sat as an assessor for IRT's and seen very very competent pilots miss radio call altogether (from ATC) or forget things like turning strobes / landing lights on or off or even descending right through a minimum descent altitude because they were trying to lay off a heavy crosswind during an instrument approach (to the point where i took over and told them to pull the screens down and look out the front as we flew along at 200 feet)... I can easily see how overloading can happen in a partial engine failure on take off. You are so focused on what the hell is going on with the "Noise MAker" that you simply don't see the trees or the wires.. Everyone needs to experience it so they can recognise it (in a safe situation)...

[facthunter]

Indeed, and you have expressed it well. You can be overloaded and stressed out and become only partially functioning A nasty "Checker" can set up to fail anyone (if you let them). In the emergency, load shed to just the essentials. Say "stand By" to demands on the radio and "say again" if clarification required "Require" a holding pattern if you need time to sort something out. In your early days doing a nice level turn onto a heading is a task. Then we make it a descent to another level as well then we include extending flaps, gear and power changes at the same time as we are near final descent point and IFR in cloud. This is without being on fire and doing checklists and frequency changes and making PA's.

With U/L's getting away from the natural flow or sequence often leads to omissions. The "checklist" is a confirmation ideally not a promoter of an action. Certain actions are done in parts of a flight in a natural way and are therefore spread out. Your "check" is a short duration confirmation that things have been DONE. Leaving a lot till the last minute risks forgetting some essential action if you are distracted by birds or gusts of wind or your passenger asking something silly, because they are nervous. Nev

[alf jessup]

Have a look on google maps. The power line is well away from the strip about 700m. I dont believe the power line is a factor in the crash as the trees appear to be taller.

 

How many pilots can say from memory what the static rpms are for their aircraft.

5200 rpm with a Hoffman 2 blade fixed pitch.

Part of my takeoff procedure is full power is obtained, airspeed alive, temps & pressures are in the green and no turn back under 700 ft.

[kgwilson]

When an unexpected event happens, even one that you have always thought may happen one day the stress level and heart rate go through the roof and tunnel vision sets in all in a second or two. This is well known and some usually very highly trained people are better at managing it than the great majority of us.

[facthunter]

If you are really busy you don't have time to think of the danger, but I must confess the instinct to just get off the thing was strong when I saw the #3 engine covered in flames going about 25 feet into the air. This was on the ground at night during a restart after the engine had stalled during the starting of the other 3 engines. The normal start sequence is 3421. #1 is on the left (port)side. Nev

[Mike Borgelt]

At full throttle, before or just after brake release, check RPM. You should know what it should be especially if it is your own aircraft.

Check airspeed as you are taking off. If you fly from mostly one strip you should know what the minimum airspeed is at various points on the takeoff roll, unless it is so long it really doesn't matter. Still a good idea though.

If your aircraft engine has a carburetor be aware that floats have been known to sink on the Marvel Scheubler Aircraft carby commonly fitted to Lycomings and Continentals and the carby fitted to Rotax's also. Causes extremely rich running and loss of power. Can be inconsistent.

I've had it happen. 1700 RPM at full throttle instead of 2100 RPM. As the flight was meant to be a "warm the oil and do an oil change" mission we took it to the barn and checked ignitions, oil filter for metal, alternator bearings, drained fuel and put fresh in (should have been OK) etc, did one run up which was OK then a full power run along runway with shutdown on reaching 40 knots at correct point, second run was 1700RPM again, which left the carby. The aircraft got a shiny factory rebuilt MSA for Christmas.

All OK after that.

A little web research reveals that the MSA carby has a history of known float problems. Hollow brass was the original material. The MSA website now has a nice image of a heap of those that have all failed. At one time they went to a plastic foam float on some types. Then with the switch to 100LL the float got eaten by the fuel (degraded anyway). They went to a hollow plastic float at one time then switched back to the brass when the plastic floats leaked and sank.

In 2005 they came up with a low density solid epoxy float which showed no problems. In 2009 MSA begged the FAA to issue an AD to replace the old floats with the new blue epoxy floats. The FAA refused. MSA issued a service bulletin which begged people on bended knee to replace the floats. As of early 2019 there has been no reported failures of the epoxy floats in 14 years. In mid 2018 MSA came out with solid low density blue epoxy floats for Rotax engines. If I owned a Rotax or any other engine that had that type of carby I'd buy the MSA type and fit them.

Now I wonder how many pilots have died because the engine performed for the takeoff run and then lost power (see my experience above). Low altitude,low power no good options etc. What are we taught in the event of engine problems? Fuel pump on, mixture full rich. Aircraft crashes, pilot killed. What happens to carby? It is under the engine. Likely crushed or wiped out. Any pre-existing damage to float likely to be impossible to ascertain.

Sad thing is the pilot likely checked or knew Full Rich was selected and the required pump(s) were on. We all do pre-takeoff checks don't we? Now during my little carby investigation I found that significantly pulling back the mixture (leaning) made the engine develop full power.

My take away lesson is that if you have an engine problem and full rich doesn't fix it, try leaning. At that point you've nothing to lose anyway.

The other lesson is - know your aircraft. Get involved in the maintenance. Knowing the systems can save your life if something goes wrong.

[Mike Borgelt]

I should add, check your MSA carby. On the attached plate should should see one field with "15" in it. This means the blue epoxy float is fitted. "MF" means a hollow brass float.