Not allowed out to fly

[kgwilson]

The Saab name would have survived if the sale to a Chinese consortium had gone through. It was blocked by former owner GM (itself bankrupt but bailed by the US government) citing transfer of technology issues. Saab Aerospace though has produced some exceptionally good military aircraft like the Gripen and Viggen & the ubiquitous Saab 340 turboprop passenger aircraft.

[M61A1]

If this theme is to succeed it has to start with a gigantic mind-shift by the consumer.

It's not just the consumer that needs a gigantic mind shift. Every business in this country is weighed down with parasite industries that sounded good when they were first implemented but have grown to the point where they suck the life out of the host.

 

Aside from lawfare from the greens, the "quality" industry (which ironically doesn't do much to improve quality as we know it) and the safety industry both need complete overhauls. The need to get away from a "safety at all cost" perspective and get back to simple risk management. Something needs to be done to remove the paralysing fear of being sued to get things moving.

 

We also need to produce stuff worth buying, shoes and bacon are one thing , but why would we buy lacklustre vehicles produced here at hideous prices.

[Marty_d]

It's not just the consumer that needs a gigantic mind shift. Every business in this country is weighed down with parasite industries that sounded good when they were first implemented but have grown to the point where they suck the life out of the host.

 

Aside from lawfare from the greens, the "quality" industry (which ironically doesn't do much to improve quality as we know it) and the safety industry both need complete overhauls. The need to get away from a "safety at all cost" perspective and get back to simple risk management. Something needs to be done to remove the paralysing fear of being sued to get things moving.

 

We also need to produce stuff worth buying, shoes and bacon are one thing , but why would we buy lacklustre vehicles produced here at hideous prices.

There are vehicles produced here?

[facthunter]

The HIGH AUD was one reason we couldn't compete. Todays low value $ would have been fine even though a low dollar is symptomatic of underlying problems with any Country's economy. Also what car is NOT subsidised in some way where it is produced? There was about 200,000 jobs involved with auto construction here. That's a significant return on investment $'s with Taxes and figures to prove it were about at the time from reputable economists. I have since had information that GM USA might have been somewhat agreeable and the latest outcomes bear this out. GM USA has problems and the Australian scene counts for little.. Nev

[turboplanner]

There are vehicles produced here?

Yes there are, thousands per year, specifically to suit Australian conditions, which have been holding their own against cheap imports in bothe the private and government markets.

[kgwilson]

GM is a shadow of its former self. Since it went broke in 08/09 it has got out of many of the automotive investments it made some many decades before. Not only Holden but Opel, Vauxhall, Saab, Isuzu & others. Mainly it had to get back to profitability to repay the US Government that bailed it out. The "Too big to fail" American philosophy that is now rearing it's head again with the dire predicament of Boeing.

[facthunter]

IT forfeited money to get out of FIAT as well. Do you recall the saying,"What's GOOD for GM is good for America?" Bet you won't hear THAT very often now..Nev

[turboplanner]

Scania has only gone bankrupt once, in 1921, after the upheaval of WW1. There was a worldwide economic recession in 1920-1922. Saab never ever got on top of its design, reliability, buyer acceptance, or manufacturing problems.

The Scania we see today is owned by Volkswagen.

 

The remnants of Saab Car division was sold to Spyker Cars (Netherlands) which filed for bakruptcy in 2011,

and Saab Aerospace have prevented anyone else using the Saab name on cars.

 

Volvo bought into UD trucks, that hasn't worked and the UD operation has been sold to Isuzu in the last few months.

[kgwilson]

There are vehicles produced here?

There are Trucks & busses produced here. Iveco, Kenworth, MAN, Mercedes, Scania & Volvo are the brands of engine & chassis used. There may be others. Bustech also manufactures its own Bustech brand and has a new Electric Bus. According to Wiki there are 24 specialist car manufacturers in Australia.

[M61A1]

There are vehicles produced here?

Ford and Holden were, but they kept on making the same thing while the rest of the world made better stuff. If they were competitive they would still be making them.

[M61A1]

Would you pay $350.00 for a $50.00 electric drill?

Some might......Many are paying $30K for a $5k engine when the buy a new Rotax.

[Thruster88]

Some might......Many are paying $30K for a $5k engine when the buy a new Rotax.

 

Where do we get these $5k engines?

[Bruce Tuncks]

I liked Holdens and Falcons and would still be driving one if they were staying. Were they really subsidized to a greater extent than paying welfare to all the now unemployed workers?

[onetrack]

There are multiple reasons why we no longer have a large-scale car manufacturing industry in Australia. The exchange rate was only one of the reasons. Many bad deals are part of the whole story.

 

The fact that we reduced tariffs on imported vehicles to virtually zero, while other countries didn't lower theirs, is another reason why our car manufacturing was pushing the proverbial sXXX uphill with a pointy stick.

 

We used to export vehicles and equipment to many countries in the Oceania region. Holdens were exported as early as the late 1950's.

 

The local manufacturers failed to grasp the subtle changes in consumer desires, and failed to build lightweight diesels, SUV's and dual-cab utes - and kept on with models such as sedans and wagons, that very few people now want.

 

Local build quality fell far below imported build quality. This is a failing of management and factory floor supervision.

 

The overseas manufacturers keep their initial sale prices low, and make up the lack of initial sales profits on parts and servicing.

 

We may see a revival of manufacturing here if we go over to EV manufacturing, where automation in manufacturing will be a method of levelling the playing field. But we need innovation, as well as the manufacturing, to keep ahead of the pack.

 

https://www.globalfleet.com/en/manufacturers/asia-pacific/analysis/end-car-manufacturing-australia?a=YHE11&t%5B0%5D=Australia&t%5B1%5D=Ford&t%5B2%5D=Holden&t%5B3%5D=Toyota&curl=1

[kgwilson]

A mate returned recently from a holiday in NZ. He said he'd never seen so many last model Commodores & Falcons in one area. This was around Gisborne on the East Coast. They were favoured and much prized by the local Maori population who generally have good sized bodies and large families.

[turboplanner]

I liked Holdens and Falcons and would still be driving one if they were staying. Were they really subsidized to a greater extent than paying welfare to all the now unemployed workers?

Very few of those unemployed workers were unemployed before the virus crisis, so the welfare issue would have been very small. Even the satellite unemployement (usually about 7 - 10 times the company rate) seemed to find alternative jobs each time a facory closed (and we've been closing them in Australia since the 1980s).

 

The taxes lost from the Auto Companies has been picked up by the much larger expansion of the industrial areas. For example As the Port Mebourne factories closed, industrial factories have expanded from Brooklyn to Werribee in Melbourne.

[Yenn]

Onetrack says that local build quality fell below imported build quality.

That was what Holden wanted. My first job in Australia was as a motor mechanic at Pagewood factory in Sydney.

We were turning out a Holden about every minute or so.

We had a batch with faulty ring gears. I could replace one in 45 mins, but was only allowed to do 3 per day, because that was the allotted time. The ring gear had a steel ball enbedded in it to be used for timing the ignition. WEE found that the ball could be as much as two inches out of position, so what chance was there of getting timing correct. The manager used to take a car home every night at knock off. Next day it came back with a fault list. The one on Monday morning was several pages long. That would be the car to buy.

I had one with a noise in the motor. A nut had been dropped through the carbie, resulting in bent valve, damaged piston and valve guide. I was allowed to replace the valve. Someone got a Holden which had a damaged piston and it probably failed fairly quickly, before the warranty ended I hope.

[facthunter]

Component suppliers did a lot of development work and were pretty versatile. Door window motors and switches from you know where are not as good but some radiators are better. Tools ?? Forget it and that discussion has been had. They look ok if shine counts but the metal is not up to it. Nev

[M61A1]

Where do we get these $5k engines?

That’s the point, for some reason people quite happily pay $30k for a low tech small 4 cylinder engine with no outstanding features, that shouldn’t cost more that a few grand and. 582 is even less special yet costs a fortune.

[kgwilson]

That’s the point, for some reason people quite happily pay $30k for a low tech small 4 cylinder engine with no outstanding features, that shouldn’t cost more that a few grand and. 582 is even less special yet costs a fortune.

But they are built for aeroplanes and that gives the manufacturer licence to double or quadruple the price even though they are not certified so paperwork cost is minimal. They only produce a few thousand compared to millions for car engines which is another excuse and ignore the fact that they are relatively low tech designs.

[onetrack]

I find, anytime I buy something from Europe, it has a slew of hidden taxes and costs attached, as part of the deal. I detest buying from European sources, for that very reason.

[Thruster88]

That’s the point, for some reason people quite happily pay $30k for a low tech small 4 cylinder engine with no outstanding features, that shouldn’t cost more that a few grand and. 582 is even less special yet costs a fortune.

The reason these engines are low tech is because it is the best package for the job. 4 valve dohc and direct injection efi would only add weight and bulk. They do have one outstanding feature, the ability to make the 2000hr tbo.

 

The 582, I bought my second one in 2015 $7500 all new inc gearbox. They have the ability to run more than 500hr without failure. There is no light enough alternative engine for aircraft like the Thruster. Thank you Rotax.

A 60hp Yamaha outboard costs about the same.

[Jerry_Atrick]

[deleted as now out of context]

[M61A1]

The reason these engines are low tech is because it is the best package for the job. 4 valve dohc and direct injection efi would only add weight and bulk. They do have one outstanding feature, the ability to make the 2000hr tbo.

 

The 582, I bought my second one in 2015 $7500 all new inc gearbox. They have the ability to run more than 500hr without failure. There is no light enough alternative engine for aircraft like the Thruster. Thank you Rotax.

A 60hp Yamaha outboard costs about the same.

I'm not saying they're bad, just overpriced for what they are. You can buy two new cars for the same money, and I'd be very surprised if they didn't make 2000 hrs either. Part of the point about low tech is just that, there are no new developments with costs to cover, they are just priced on what the market will bear.

Rotax make engines for many motorcycles, many of which are more complex and have much more technology, yet the whole motorcycle costs about half what a 912 does.

[mnewbery]

Not sure what the product liability insurance is on each aero engine. A rough guess would be "whatever it cost to make the engine, that is the insurance cost, on each aero engine".

 

Same comment for complete piston driven aeroplanes. Wikipedia has the details on the product liability crisis that led Cessna to stop making new planes for a while