Not allowed out to fly

[facthunter]

Blame the litigious USA for a lot of Light aircraft costs. They virtually put Cessna Beech and Piper out of the sky .Same with motorcycles. Honda was taken to court with a motorcycle with fairly high miles and quite a few years old that had loose steering head bearings due bad servicing, did a tank slapper and crashed.. YOU are supposed to service things.

Liability is one thing .Low volume and exposure to abuse is another. Many Lawnmowers get better looked after than some aeroplanes, let a alone the ones that work near salt water. . People I know that look at a jabiru engine consider them to be worth what they cost just considering the machining and assembly etc and the numbers made. Anyone I know who builds replica or modified motorcycle engine gets to a similar cost as a jabiru. To overhaul an Indian 4 engine and gearbox properly would cost more than a jab six. Nev.

Edited April 14, 2020 by facthunter

[turboplanner]

I'm not saying they're bad, just overpriced for what they are. You can buy two new cars for the same money, and I'd be very surprised if they didn't make 2000 hrs either. Part of the point about low tech is just that, there are no new developments with costs to cover, they are just priced on what the market will bear.

Rotax make engines for many motorcycles, many of which are more complex and have much more technology, yet the whole motorcycle costs about half what a 912 does.

The whole point of the discussion relates to volume. The bigger the volume the more millions can be spent on tooling.

We've been stamping Iveco ACCO cabs out at the rate of a few hundred a year at Dandenong.

 

The Isuzu cab plant has 10,000 robots building the cab.

Robots don't need to see so lights aren't needed in the factory.

Robots supply parts to the line in the order the cab models are being built.

The robots on the line can identify the model cab arriving at the station and pick out the correct dash and poke it through the cab door (while the line is still moving) the dash, with 48 bolts moves ahead faster than the cab and the 48 bolts go through 48 holes and a platen comes down outside with 48 nuts loaded by robots and 48 motors in the platen torque the 48 nuts. The following cab may have 32 bolts in different positions with different size nuts but the robots just fit it. If you want to increase production by 30% you just dial up what you want and the whole plant moves up 30% in speed.

A Country with a tiny production demand like Australia can't compete with that, so when a big overseas company starts offering product of equivanlent or better quality, the buyers just buy, which was my earlier point.

As consumers, we get a huge benefit from this multi-model production compared to the single product (Henry Ford) lines we could afford in Australia.

What we are seeing is Sales Processing Centres like HSV where if Australia wants something unique a mass produced product can be unbuilt then rebuilt here: examples Chrysler Ram and Chevrolet Silverado.

This process was pioneered in Australia by International Harvester through its Truck Sales Processing Centre.

[M61A1]

The whole point of the discussion relates to volume. The bigger the volume the more millions can be spent on tooling.

We've been stamping Iveco ACCO cabs out at the rate of a few hundred a year at Dandenong.

 

The Isuzu cab plant has 10,000 robots building the cab.

Robots don't need to see so lights aren't needed in the factory.

Robots supply parts to the line in the order the cab models are being built.

The robots on the line can identify the model cab arriving at the station and pick out the correct dash and poke it through the cab door (while the line is still moving) the dash, with 48 bolts moves ahead faster than the cab and the 48 bolts go through 48 holes and a platen comes down outside with 48 nuts loaded by robots and 48 motors in the platen torque the 48 nuts. The following cab may have 32 bolts in different positions with different size nuts but the robots just fit it. If you want to increase production by 30% you just dial up what you want and the whole plant moves up 30% in speed.

A Country with a tiny production demand like Australia can't compete with that, so when a big overseas company starts offering product of equivanlent or better quality, the buyers just buy, which was my earlier point.

As consumers, we get a huge benefit from this multi-model production compared to the single product (Henry Ford) lines we could afford in Australia.

What we are seeing is Sales Processing Centres like HSV where if Australia wants something unique a mass produced product can be unbuilt then rebuilt here: examples Chrysler Ram and Chevrolet Silverado.

This process was pioneered in Australia by International Harvester through its Truck Sales Processing Centre.

Actually my initial response was about the question of people paying more for perceived quality. Why else would people spend that much money on the engine? Things drifted a bit as usual.

 

I agree though about the volume thing, although they have been essentially making the same models now for many years, with minor tweaks, I suspect that they are priced on what the market will bear rather than trying to be competitive, which I guess is what happen when you don't have any real competitors.

[turboplanner]

Actually my initial response was about the question of people paying more for perceived quality. Why else would people spend that much money on the engine? Things drifted a bit as usual.

 

I agree though about the volume thing, although they have been essentially making the same models now for many years, with minor tweaks, I suspect that they are priced on what the market will bear rather than trying to be competitive, which I guess is what happen when you don't have any real competitors.

The products the people have been buying allow a much wider choice, have the advantage of incorporating much more new design and components, and so far, thanks to warranties out to ten years, have built a reputation for good resale value.

 

Where, in Australia we used to require about ten years to amortise tooling before we could add a new design, that can happen in months in the current global volume manufacture.

 

So as much as buying in Australia is a romantic notion there are factors other than cheap price.

[Thruster88]

I'm not saying they're bad, just overpriced for what they are. You can buy two new cars for the same money, and I'd be very surprised if they didn't make 2000 hrs either. Part of the point about low tech is just that, there are no new developments with costs to cover, they are just priced on what the market will bear.

Rotax make engines for many motorcycles, many of which are more complex and have much more technology, yet the whole motorcycle costs about half what a 912 does.

 

There is a table with prices of all the sport aircraft engines at the bottom of this very good article. All engines are complete with accessories. Not having a go at you M16A1 but they are all expensive when comparing apples to apples.

 

2019 Engine Buyer's Guide

[M61A1]

I agree that all those that were designed from the outset to be dedicated aero engines are quite expensive. The original question was about whether people were prepared to pay more for perceived quality, hence the statement about Rotax.

 

I still think that Rotax could be much cheaper if they wanted to, but don't have much competition that have built up the hours in the air.

I really do like the Aeromomentum and it illustrates the point quite well. I hope it gets very successful then we might see Rotax start to be more competitive. Yes, it's bit heavier, but those few kilos less cost an awful lot, and most of the Suzuki bits can be bought over the counter quite cheaply. I spoke to someone about two years ago that had built their own Corvair engine here in Australia with a kit from the US and that had cost around $5k US.

[kaz3g]

That's a theme developing in Australia too, mainly from people with no manufacturing experience.

The theme misses the critical factor that the consumer will always make that choice.

Where is your T shirt made, jocks, trousers, socks, shoes pens, calculator, computer, desk, chair, furniture, plaster roof tiles, in fact anythong that can be fitted into a container.

Laurence Hartnett got GM to set up car production in Australia, so we would never be short of cars again after Britain cut off supply at the beginning of WW2.

This theme is a repeat of that, but would your really pay for the amortisation and high unit cost for Australian products?

We currently buy bacon with 2% Australian content, the packaging, would we pay five times that cost for Australian bacon?

Would you pay $40.00 for $10.00 shoes?

Would you pay $350.00 for a $50.00 electric drill?

.......and so on.

If this theme is to succeed it has to start with a gigantic mind-shift by the consumer.

Let's not forget that the average consumer who works is paying higher taxes to cover payouts for the millions who don't, higher taxes for an artificial fuel price (which is currently quietly being manipulated back up by an agreement to cut oil production), higher taxes and emission costs on cars, higher Council rates, a GST system that didn't replace all other taxes, but now adds 10% on most other excises and taxes, and so on.

It has been largely China's ability to offer low consumer prices along with partners working that's allowed us to have a reasonable standard of living in recent decades.

But they were good drills! And the shoes lasted for years.

[onetrack]

I had an Aussie Skil drill that went for years and years and years - and the only reason it stopped was because I dropped a sizeable piece of lumber on it accidentally from a serious height, fracturing the casing.

The underside of my bench is full of burnt-out Chinese 125mm angle grinders. If I get 18 mths out of them, I'm doing well.

[Mike Gearon]

Karma is having a wow of a time kicking bean counters in the bum. You can't improve the lot of your own people if you give their work away to other countries.

I wish we could. When I built my house I had to get an 900mm round brass fireplace door machined. In Dandenong, one of the last remaining really large (steam train large) lathes. It was so cool to see it working.

[Jerry_Atrick]

Isn't the whole economy, which is driven by infinite growth, based on manufacuturing items with a use by date? If companies made things to last, eventually that indistry would reach saturation and growth would trickle - much like GDP in most of the western world now. Take shoes - I spend £160 for my ECCO shoes.. can't remember the model. I had the firt pair for around 6 years before they were relegated to gardening only.. That is around £28 year. Ultra comfy, rugged, waterproof and stylishly casual withuot rendering me an old age pensioner. Two years ago, I bought a replacement - they stiching has already come off with probably an easier life than the last pair. I am getting them repaired and maybe they are an outler for ECCO, but still quite disappointed. Most people would chuck them and either go for something else or replace them. If they are replaced, ECCO have more than doubled their revenue (£80/year). I should actually send them to ECCO, when I think about it...

[mnewbery]

From the AOPA Facebook page

https://www.facebook.com/pg/AOPAaustralia/posts/

 

https://www.facebook.com/ric.wilson.12?pageid=189656204498646&ftentidentifier=1857184041079179&padding=0

 

Hey Ben - various authorities tell me that we cannot fly our private aircraft irrespective of what we might be involved with. Heaps were out flying over Easter including many ocean going vessels and various boats. Seems to be rules for some and not others. I encountered three police road blocks getting to airport where they interrogated individuals as to what they are doing driving. Fortunately I missed being checked despite the fact that some of my airport work is essential work. In some cases folk were asked to show shopping receipts. I live in a location where locals are blatantly ignoring social distances, have parties and invite friends to stay overnight. The two supermarkets nearby get entire family units to do multiple shopping on any given day. The final crunch was my underwriter stating that if there are laws grounding us and we break them it could be an out for them to not cover our flights or indeed any insurance arrangements including vehicle. Do you have any firm qualification on all this or are we on our own here? One thing they keep throwing at me is that if we have a road, boating or air accident it would endanger emergency services people. If that be the case why don't they just ban all road users since they are far more dangerous than GA activity - I would have thought. Obviously, we need essential services so that would not work very well. In the meanwhile aircraft engines are left idle until we are confident that the new one world government won't harm us.

 

I have no idea what authorities he is talking about...

 

I would also add I got an email recently imploring me to go fly club aircraft and "there was no reason not to". Which is all good, if the person sending the message isn't the one paying the infringement notice

[Bruce Tuncks]

Some of you guys must have had more money than I was used to as a kid. My memories of old stuff... tools, cars, houses, was that they were of poor quality. The new stuff is much better.

[old man emu]

Take shoes - I spend £160 for my ECCO shoes.

 

Maybe you should take a road trip to Northants and see Barker Shoes at Earls Barton.

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

I have a pair of Barkers for work.. Significantly more than £160... and their offerings are more dress than cansual... They only have loafers and sneakers - nothing waterproof.. Also, I have a wide foot and ECCO seem to fit better.

[kaz3g]

Onetrack says that local build quality fell below imported build quality.

That was what Holden wanted. My first job in Australia was as a motor mechanic at Pagewood factory in Sydney.

We were turning out a Holden about every minute or so.

We had a batch with faulty ring gears. I could replace one in 45 mins, but was only allowed to do 3 per day, because that was the allotted time. The ring gear had a steel ball enbedded in it to be used for timing the ignition. WEE found that the ball could be as much as two inches out of position, so what chance was there of getting timing correct. The manager used to take a car home every night at knock off. Next day it came back with a fault list. The one on Monday morning was several pages long. That would be the car to buy.

I had one with a noise in the motor. A nut had been dropped through the carbie, resulting in bent valve, damaged piston and valve guide. I was allowed to replace the valve. Someone got a Holden which had a damaged piston and it probably failed fairly quickly, before the warranty ended I hope.

I dunno. I had several Holdens including a very nice HJ(?) two door SLE with baby V8 and auto, and a very nice SLX Torana Hatchback with the 308 and 4/speed and they just kept on going. My last car, a BMW 318ti coupe cost me heaps and stoppEd on the HUme twice! Lovely to drive but needed a trailer to cart the bank around behind it.

[onetrack]

Not for nothing are BMW's nicknamed "Break My Wallet", "Bring More Wrenches", and "Brutal Money Waster".

[Marty_d]

Not for nothing are BMW's nicknamed ... "Bring More Wrenches" ...

 

Well there's the problem - people misread it and don't see the R in the last word.

[Old Koreelah]

[Bruce Tuncks]

Alas not true about chick magnets Marty. Once I was in a V12 e type getting petrol in Gawler. The only interest was from an old bloke who asked to see the motor.

[Bruce Tuncks]

Of course it wasn't my car... us Jabiru owners don't usually drive e types.

[M61A1]

Not for nothing are BMW's nicknamed "Break My Wallet", "Bring More Wrenches", and "Brutal Money Waster".

I have had a few and quite like them, but I don’t think they are tolerant of neglect. Old Holdens and Fords I think are more tolerant of mistreatment and will generally keep going with some of the worst abuse. That said most BMW drivers won’t tolerate a minor oil leak, but a falcon driver won’t care until the oil costs more that the petrol.

[Marty_d]

I have had a few and quite like them, but I don’t think they are tolerant of neglect. Old Holdens and Fords I think are more tolerant of mistreatment and will generally keep going with some of the worst abuse. That said most BMW drivers won’t tolerate a minor oil leak, but a falcon driver won’t care until the oil costs more that the petrol.

When I was young I had a mate with an XW Falcon. He'd drive it from Lonnavale to Hobart (around 60km), then put 4 litres of oil in before the return trip. Every time.

Plus he had to get home before dark because the headlights didn't work.

[facthunter]

The chick magnet effect certainly exists. They certainly don't want to get stuck with some bloke who can't keep them in the manner to which they would like to become accustomed. It's got nothing to do with how many cylinders the engine has . It signals wealth.(like furs and diamonds). Nev

[turboplanner]

Alas not true about chick magnets Marty. Once I was in a V12 e type getting petrol in Gawler. The only interest was from an old bloke who asked to see the motor.

I was driving down Kalakiaua Avenue in Honolulu in a Mustang Convertibe, and stopped at lights, in the left lane. A very attractive blonde walked over, smiled and said "Nieeece!" I smiled back and then realised her eyes were on the Mustang.

[Marty_d]

I was driving down Kalakiaua Avenue in Honolulu in a Mustang Convertibe, and stopped at lights, in the left lane. A very attractive blonde walked over, smiled and said "Nieeece!" I smiled back and then realised her eyes were on the Mustang.

Well you probably didn't look like her niece.