The question of the future of flying?????

[facthunter]

Butch. They only replaced themselves. 2 Kids. No fridge till I was 12 or First second hand car. I sold newspapers when I was 12. Not much spare $$'s Nev

[Butch]

Butch. They only replaced themselves. 2 Kids. No fridge till I was 12 or First second hand car. I sold newspapers when I was 12. Not much spare $$'s Nev

Agree Nev,

I have always argued everybody should be made sterile at birth.

It would only be reversed when you can prove you can support and are capable to have a family.

You have to prove youself before you can fly a plane, drive a car or graduate any degree.

It's just to easy to pump out kids and live on the dole.

[facthunter]

Don't know I would go that far but there's a lot of dysfunctional families under a lot of pressure to survive.. I reckon that started when it became necessary to have BOTH parents working and 25 years to pay off a house and have every gadget the makers could convince us we must have to be a success. Until then clothes and shoes got mended and jumpers got knitted and people preserved fruit from a neighbours apricot tree and had chooks for the eggs and occasional special treat, ate one of the chooks.. Nev

[spacesailor]

" . Until then clothes and shoes got mended and jumpers got knitted and people preserved fruit from a neighbours apricot tree and had chooks for the eggs and occasional special treat, ate one of the chooks.. Nev "

Sounds a Lot like Blacktown. Now,

And an orange for the Christmas treat.

One year we had Topsey and Snowey for Christmas dinner, didn't go down well. as we would have liked to have eaten the neighbour's cat rather than our Pet rabbits.

spacesailor

[jackc]

You can't fully protect yourself from fools. They become so good at it from constant practice. Therefore no foolproof device will ever be. Nev

 

And, the ‘fool’ population is increasing at a rapid rate:-(

[Jerry_Atrick]

" . Until then clothes and shoes got mended and jumpers got knitted and people preserved fruit from a neighbours apricot tree and had chooks for the eggs and occasional special treat, ate one of the chooks.. Nev "

Sounds a Lot like Blacktown. Now,

And an orange for the Christmas treat.

One year we had Topsey and Snowey for Christmas dinner, didn't go down well. as we would have liked to have eaten the neighbour's cat rather than our Pet rabbits.

spacesailor

That brought a tear to my eye! Poor rabbits, though..

[Jerry_Atrick]

And, the ‘fool’ population is increasing at a rapid rate:-(

Yeah - just look at our pollies (collectively across the western world, at least)...

[mnewbery]

I'm still laughing at how the owners of Etihad and SIAL (plus other equity partners) seem quite content to offload Virgin Australia and walk away from $5B in debt. Meanwhile Scurrah and the MSM would have us believe that the Victorian and QLD governments are bidding for the airline. There is more to this story. The important bit is "if a government buys or bails out Virgin taxpayers are footing the bill for a foreign owned company debt"

 

As an aside, Tiger will be considered by-catch in this

[jackc]

I'm still laughing at how the owners of Etihad and SIAL (plus other equity partners) seem quite content to offload Virgin Australia and walk away from $5B in debt. Meanwhile Scurrah and the MSM would have us believe that the Victorian and QLD governments are bidding for the airline. There is more to this story. The important bit is "if a government buys or bails out Virgin taxpayers are footing the bill for a foreign owned company debt"

 

As an aside, Tiger will be considered by-catch in this

 

Be interesting to see the outcome of throwing $5b in debt, under the bus.....we don’t know who is owed at this stage.

[Bruce Tuncks]

Space makes a good case for how people survived tough times in the past. The suburban block was big enough to grow food and keep chooks. Cities used to provide a third of their own food.

Not now, those villa blocks are future death traps. And apartments more so.

The reason blocks were so big was because of the need to keep your outside dunny away from the neighbors a bit.

[onetrack]

One of the more interesting things about the Virgin collapse is the news that Virgin Australia has been paying Branson a figure reported to be $10M a year, just to use the name "Virgin".

That's $100M the Pommy rort-artist has sucked out of Virgin Australia, for doing exactly nothing. The hidden Virgin "tax" we've all been paying, so Branson can party with babes and have his own Caribbean Island.

So, suck it up Mr Branson - stop crying poor, you've been riding high for free on Virgin Australias back. Now you've been thrown, don't come to us wailing about how you need financial handouts - you're part of Virgin's problem.

Edited April 22, 2020 by onetrack

[jackc]

One of the more interesting things about the Virgin collapse is the news that Virgin Australia has been paying Branson a figure reported to be $10M a year, just to use the name "Virgin".

That's $100M the Pommy rort-artist has sucked out of Virgin Australia, for doing exactly nothing. The hidden Virgin "tax" we've all been paying, so Branson can party with babes and have his own Caribbean Island.

So, suck it up Mr Branson - stop crying poor, you've been riding high for free on Virgin Australias back. Now you've been thrown, don't come to us wailing about how you need financial handouts - you're part of Virgin's problem.

 

Had to pay for Virginal Galactic somehow!

[kgwilson]

I bought my first LP when in London from Richard Bransons Virgin record shop in central London. He grew it from 1 shop to many, then Virgin records and exploded from there. Mike Oldfields Tubular Bells album was one of the first on the Virgin label and a major success. If you have built an empire on a name you might as well exploit it. He has been a supporter of numerous environmental projects and has pledged $3 Billion towards addressing global warming. He is a very successful entrepreneur and a real adventurer. Just before the GFC my business built a glass pool fence on Makepeace island in Noosa that he bought as a holiday retreat for his employees.

 

Anyone who uses a brand name will pay royalties but Branson, while he has a 10.5% shareholding in Virgin Australia is not stupid. His shares are worth 8 cents each so there is no way he is going to throw any good money after bad.

[onetrack]

His shares are worth 8 cents each so there is no way he is going to throw any good money after bad

No - he just wants mug taxpayers to foot the bill so he can make another billion out of his shareholding and naming rights over the next 10 years.

Might as well re-arrange the company structure, give the debtors 1c in the $1 (I've been offered worse) - and re-name it Australian Airlines right now, thus saving $100M up front for a good start.

[jackc]

I bought my first LP when in London from Richard Bransons Virgin record shop in central London. He grew it from 1 shop to many, then Virgin records and exploded from there. Mike Oldfields Tubular Bells album was one of the first on the Virgin label and a major success. If you have built an empire on a name you might as well exploit it. He has been a supporter of numerous environmental projects and has pledged $3 Billion towards addressing global warming. He is a very successful entrepreneur and a real adventurer. Just before the GFC my business built a glass pool fence on Makepeace island in Noosa that he bought as a holiday retreat for his employees.

 

Anyone who uses a brand name will pay royalties but Branson, while he has a 10.5% shareholding in Virgin Australia is not stupid. His shares are worth 8 cents each so there is no way he is going to throw any good money after bad.

I would like to see peer reviewed evidence 0f the $3 billion dollar global warming contribution. Probably claim an offset through saving a ‘value’ of air pollution having his aircraft grounded.

[kgwilson]

I would like to see peer reviewed evidence 0f the $3 billion dollar global warming contribution. Probably claim an offset through saving a ‘value’ of air pollution having his aircraft grounded.

That was what he pledged in 2006 over the next decade & has been severely criticised for not actually providing that much. As at 2014 he had provided $114 million, a whole lot short of the promised $3 Billion. It seems the money was coming from profits from various so called "Green Projects" which failed to deliver.

[jackc]

That was what he pledged in 2006 over the next decade & has been severely criticised for not actually providing that much. As at 2014 he had provided $114 million, a whole lot short of the promised $3 Billion. It seems the money was coming from profits from various so called "Green Projects" which failed to deliver.

 

In other words it was a b/s publicity stunt, common place thing these days. You know, many years ago I looked up to successful people like him, how they succeeded and employed lots of people and gave many families an income.

Nowadays, great while it’s going with plenty of swimming pools, movie stars and toys......then CRASH. Everyone gets chucked under the bus and the entrepreneur always ends up with some money, at everyone else’s expense.

[mnewbery]

Its called "privatising the profits and socialising the losses". Hate the game not the playa!

[Litespeed]

No hate the game and those that play to rip off the people.

 

To only blame to he game means his ilk get away with it.

[Jerry_Atrick]

Wasn't it Warren Buffet who wrote something like "every time I think I may investn in an airline, I call a 1-800 number I set up to talk me out of it.".

 

As I see it, there are two really big issues in Australia with respect to newcomer airlines that are little more than a domestic operation with some regional international flights. First, QANTAS seems to have a lot of the infrastructure tied up. Terminal space, regional airline connections, etc. This makes it hard for me to book, say a flight from Brisbane to Mildura on any other airline. I know that other airlines have agreements, but the connectivity in terms of timetaleing, etc just makes it that much more difficult. I know as I tried it..

 

Secondly, is the market big enough to support more than one home-based operator without some form of intervention? In the good ol' two-airline regulated days - where, in the'80s, a standard price fare from Melb to Brisbane was in other order of $650 then, it meant there was enough to go around to ensure profitability. With regulation coming and going, we saw the first attempt at Southern Cross not get off the ground, and a second attempt eventually crashing. Ansett goes broke (I can't remember if this was before or after Southern Cross), then came Tiger, Virgun Blue/Australia, Jet Star (QANTAS, I know, but run as separate entitiy), and all have not fared so well. Only QANTAS survives to make a profit, which cannot be brand loyalty alone - or can it?

 

With a small population, large land mass, high unit costs (I recall sitting at Adelaide airport waiting for a connecting flight and in the 2 or 3 hours there was only 1 landing and 1 take off aircraft - that's a lot of expensive facility sitting idle), etc, it is not a valid comparison to Asian, European, Middle Eastern nor US/Canada. Maybe Africa - although SAA has just gone bust, too. After de-regulation, we have enjoyed lower fares, but is the market rebalancing to what it can bear and, with what looks like one airline, will the fares moving up reflect the true cost/return on equity of air travel in Australia?

 

Re the debt pile, well, it will ultimately be the debtors that suffer. The aircraft leasing companies will not be able to move too many planes at the moment, so they will have stock. But, they probably won't be hurt too much as they tend to wrap the aircraft leases into asset backed securities and flog them to investors - often funds, but sometimes direct to retail investors depending on the jurisdiction. So, your super may ultimatley suffer. I haven't looked at their books (are they available), but I am guessing there is very little tangible assets they hold - maybe slots at the major airports and some fuel/spares will be tradeable.. It is common that even the office funiture is leased during startup/early phase of running a business to keep cash flow positive and also reduce tax liability. Any bond holders or on-balance sheet bank loans will be swallowed by those institutions; senior debt holders will get the first dibs at whatever pickings are available, and then subordinated debt gets whatever may be left. Of course, trade debtors will also have a crack. Let's not forget, the ATO probably have fiorst dibs (after the administrator?) on everything.

 

The shareholders will be wiped clean - but often in these structures, they provide the cash in the form of mortgaged or senior debt throgh some wrapper, so they get what they can out of it before anyone else.

Edited April 23, 2020 by Jerry_Atrick

[kaz3g]

My Aeroclub committee has written to local Federal and State MPs reiterating contents of AOPA letter to PM and asking for approval to conduct maintenance flights one-up to comply with engine manufacturers’ Recommendations.

 

suggest as many as possible do likewise.

[mnewbery]

No hate the game and those that play to rip off the people.

 

To only blame to he game means his ilk get away with it.

Commonwealth Bank, Bank of NSW/Westpac, PMG/Telecom Oz/Telstra/Australia Post, Ergon, ACTewAGL .... and on. And on. And on.

 

This game you speak of, its government sponsored. To think that these people won't keep getting away with it, is deluded

Edited April 23, 2020 by mnewbery

[mnewbery]

Let's not forget, the ATO probably have fiorst dibs (after the administrator?) on everything.

No they don't but they can cause a lot of grief for the other creditors if they don't get paid. There are many many instances where ATO have agreed not to prosecute a business owner if they paid taxes outstanding but by the time that was done, there was nothing else left. Once that agreement was made (often privately, between the business owners and the Tax lawyers) by the time a wind-up notice is issued there is nothing left to fight over. The worst bit is, because the tax office didn't prosecute the business owners get to walk free and do it again the very next day.

[Flightrite]

My Aeroclub committee has written to local Federal and State MPs reiterating contents of AOPA letter to PM and asking for approval to conduct maintenance flights one-up to comply with engine manufacturers’ Recommendations.

 

suggest as many as possible do likewise.

 

Such correspondence will only fall on deaf ears sadly! Whilst it's not illegal to fly yr plane it won't look good to the ground lubbers who will complain!

[spacesailor]

"Space makes a good case for how people survived tough times in the past. The suburban block was big enough to grow food and keep chooks. Cities used to provide a third of their own food.

Not now, those villa blocks are future death traps. And apartments more so.

The reason blocks were so big was because of the need to keep your outside dunny away from the neighbors a bit. "

 

We had an outside dunny, it was a share with two other families, and the Yard was concrete. not a blade of grass in our whole street.

we also shared that ONE water tap, and had to save water in winter to Unfreeze it, by poring boiling water over the tap-stand.

sometimes the lead pipe was split then we ( the 3 family's ) had to repair it ourselves. No blowtorch or fancy tools then just a bucket of fire and a piece of boot leather, to wipe a lead joint.

HO, what fun, and foul language plus the smell of burnt arm hair.

Those were the days. ( I hated). Never wiped lead pipe in Australia. LoL

spacesailor

Edited April 23, 2020 by spacesailor