Navigation Using VOR?

[Flightrite]

But GBAS also needs satellites as part of its implementation?

 

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ato/service_units/techops/navservices/gnss/laas/

I didn't say it didn't!

[jackc]

I didn't say it didn't!

 

But it can still have the same foibles as a straight out GPS network when it comes to Solar interference. I would put my faith in VOR long before GPS.

Sometimes the best technology is not always the best:-)

[Flightrite]

But it can still have the same foibles as a straight out GPS network when it comes to Solar interference. I would put my faith in VOR long before GPS.

Sometimes the best technology is not always the best:-)

 

Well you better inform the Airlines that are using GBAS to land off in lovely WX that faith is the answer!?

[Jerry_Atrick]

I get that sentiment. Someone told me its not a bad idea to keep the whizz wheel and paper map skills up-to-date just to keep things interesting

I bought my whizz wheel back in '95 at La Trobe Airport (LVAC). It was expensive - about $60 or $70 from memory, but it is a solodly made metal one; not one of the current day plastic stuff. Part of the reason why I sill manually PLOG is just to get to use it...

[kgwilson]

I've had my Jeppesson Sanderson alloy "Flight Computer" (love the name) for over 40 years & still use it to keep my memory of how to navigate manually going. It is a great tool when the batteries go flat. I use the magenta line on the phones little screen and have the pencil line on the map on the seat beside me so I can check landmarks way ahead.

[Student Pilot]

Before GPS days I never used whiz wheels much, used to do a ground speed check if things didn't look quite right. Maps, either an out of date WAC of NRMA road map were good. The only time it got hard is bad weather.

[Yenn]

If I am going on a trip of over about 50 miles I will get the weather and use the whiz wheel to get nav info, then I will consult Avplan and see if they agree. Quite often there will be minor differences, due I think to Avplan using different winds for different parts of a flight, where I may use one wind.

I must admit it needs regular use to keep current with the whiz wheel.

On the 100 to 650 speed side of the Kane computer, the bottom section has a squared off section, lines all parallel, vertical and horizontal. I have never discovered how it is supposed to work and the handbook does not explain. Does anyone know?

[Flightrite]

I doubt I could use my old circular side rule these days! Thank God for OzRyws ?

[Bruce Tuncks]

That was a real interesting comment Jab 7252 about flying to the right of the line. I tried to look it up but failed. Could you tell us more? Is it a regulation?

I never heard of the idea but it is obviously a good one.

[Flightrite]

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That was a real interesting comment Jab 7252 about flying to the right of the line. I tried to look it up but failed. Could you tell us more? Is it a regulation?

I never heard of the idea but it is obviously a good one.

 

Offest tracks can be flown but that guarantees nothing. No need for it if on CTA unless you deem it nesesary due WX for Eg.

[Jerry_Atrick]

@Bruce Tuncks - I don't know about flying to the right of a GPS track, butin the, before the Single European Rules of the Air (SERA), the rule was when tracking a line feature you should fly to the right of it. The reason is obvious - there are very few true straight line feature in the UK and as they twist and turn, you have sightof them easier than on the right. But also, there is a chance that someone may be tracking it the other way. It may just lessen the risk of a collision.

 

Since taking on the SERA, it is no longer a rule in the UK, but most people I know, when flying VFR still adhere to it.

[facthunter]

VOR is reliable It is line of sight. NDB and the ADF have coastal refraction at beginning and end of the day and point at active storms. Radio station transmitters if their position is known can be an aid. Inertial is expensive I've only used the mechanical type. I wouldn't be surprised if there's electronic . Nev

[skippydiesel]

I confess to being a bit of a planning freak - I enjoy the virtual flight many times befor committing aviation and when I do, I have no less than 3 independent GPS driven nav systems, one compass, metric eyeball and all VFR maps needed to cover the trip. I have not used or felt the loss of VOR/NDB, Gyro compass since leaving GA about 15 years ago now. Even when my iPad/OzRnwys went out on temperature (x2) it did not even register a rise in heart rate - just maintained heading, referred to alternate systems - all good. Lots of expensive & heavy instruments do not necessarily a navigator make.

[facthunter]

The thread is" navigation using the VOR" (VHF Omi Range). Clearly it is becoming decommissioned and there's less ground radar which once you could have used in emergencies. GPS is fine but dependent on factors over which a pilot has no control.. IFR flights had to PLAN with certain TSO'd Instruments on which the pilot is currently rated ticked off so it can be approved.. IF it's part of the planes equipment (often duplicated)and you were rated on it and it's sufficient for the route and conditions likely to be encountered you GO. Your plan is approved .

IF an aid goes U/S and you don't have another SUITABLE to cover you, you don't comply with the clearance any more. You were often trained on a DME homing procedure also which could get you down to a level where you could expect to be visual if the forecast allows it.. Use of any of these aids relates to weather and fuel for alternates, let down procedures and holding requirements as well as navigation between waypoints on specific IFR routes.

ALL that doesn't have much relevance to what WE do which should still rely mostly on map reading whether google maps or paper ones. and track keeping The WAC chart with height indications (Hypsometric tints) and contour lines is basic to that at a planning stage and in flight though not without issues in an open cockpit aircraft. On one of your flights just cover your GPS and see how you go after a while. It's easy to be too dependent on the GPS. Nev

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[Flightrite]

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The thread is" navigation using the VOR" (VHF Omi Range). Clearly it is becoming decommissioned and there's less ground radar which once you could have used in emergencies. GPS is fine but dependent on factors over which a pilot has no control.. IFR flights had to PLAN with certain TSO'd Instruments on which the pilot is currently rated ticked off so it can be approved.. IF it's part of the planes equipment (often duplicated)and you were rated on it and it's sufficient for the route and conditions likely to be encountered you GO. Your plan is approved .

IF an aid goes U/S and you don't have another SUITABLE to cover you, you don't comply with the clearance any more. You were often trained on a DME homing procedure also which could get you down to a level where you could expect to be visual if the forecast allows it.. Use of any of these aids relates to weather and fuel for alternates, let down procedures and holding requirements as well as navigation between waypoints on specific IFR routes.

ALL that doesn't have much relevance to what WE do which should still rely mostly on map reading whether google maps or paper ones. and track keeping The WAC chart with height indications (Hypsometric tints) and contour lines is basic to that at a planning stage and in flight though not without issues in an open cockpit aircraft. On one of your flights just cover your GPS and see how you go after a while. It's easy to be too dependent on the GPS. Nev

s

 

Ahhhh the good old days, morse code & DME homing, you are showing yr age Nev? Do you remember Kieth Hants out at EN in the old Link?

I use mostly DCT too but also like to check off along the way my position on Ozrwys if not just to keep the mind active?

[facthunter]

I do recall Keiths name. Can't recall how much link time I did in the COMPANY one. It wasn't a lot.. .Morse was needed to ident the aids and you had to keep it audible during any procedure depending on it, which I think is excessive if the instrument had a failure flag. When I came in it was 12 WPM trans and receive. before that it was 25..

Go to. Sure.. But watch for things like Prohibited Areas and CTA boundaries. near your original track.. I once did a pretty UNTIDY return trip just making another column and using the GPS by itself (Garmin296.).. On that occasion it didn't matter but It wasn't a good effort, and I know it. Nev

[Flightrite]

I do recall Keiths name. Can't recall how much link time I did in the COMPANY one. It wasn't a lot.. .Morse was needed to ident the aids and you had to keep it audible during any procedure depending on it, which I think is excessive if the instrument had a failure flag. When I came in it was 12 WPM trans and receive. before that it was 25..

Go to. Sure.. But watch for things like Prohibited Areas and CTA boundaries. near your original track.. I once did a pretty UNTIDY return trip just making another column and using the GPS by itself (Garmin296.).. On that occasion it didn't matter but It wasn't a good effort, and I know it. Nev

 

Kieth was a great bloke, a real charactor?

I was a product of those days too especially when the Dept did 6 mth IFR checks! Ozrwys shows everything a driver needs to know, it's what I call an idiot proof Nav device? I used to use ground based aids but don't see the point now VFR.

[facthunter]

The long "over desert trips" were even then pretty devoid of radio fixes so all that stuff didn't count for much. Map reading likewise Mt Isa to Katherine. If I was flying a Jab Cessna or whatever I'd stick to near a road so someone could get to you easy if you ran out of noise or felt crook. Nev

[Flightrite]

The long "over desert trips" were even then pretty devoid of radio fixes so all that stuff didn't count for much. Map reading likewise Mt Isa to Katherine. If I was flying a Jab Cessna or whatever I'd stick to near a road so someone could get to you easy if you ran out of noise or felt crook.

 

That's good advice, good advice? I nominate a Sartime if I'm out remote and out of VHF range.

[Jabiru7252]

That was a real interesting comment Jab 7252 about flying to the right of the line. I tried to look it up but failed. Could you tell us more? Is it a regulation?

I never heard of the idea but it is obviously a good one.

 

Well, I am sure I was taught that flying to the right of track, only by a small amount, say 1/2 mile (depends on your altitude) would give you a better view of the track and anybody coming the other way will be on the other side. Traffic coming the other way technically should be 1000 feet higher or lower but below 5000 feet or stress of weather that's not guaranteed. I thought it was 'the done thing'. I've always done it. It's a hell of a lot easier with GPS.

[kaz3g]

You are probably right. Being able to parallel track is handy. GPS is so accurate it can make it less safe EVERYONE is dead on track so vertical separation becomes absolutely necessary to be right on. every time. Nev.

I always love ADF when I lived Outback In the 70s. Tuned into ABC at Paraburdoo, Newman, Meeka you couldn’t get too misplaced...and you kept up with the news as well!

[kaz3g]

Solar flares can affect all radio frequencies so VOR, ADF & ILS can also malfunction. In theory a really large Coronal Mass Ejection (CME) could disrupt all electronic communications on earth. If this was to happen almost all of our electrical systems, electronic gadgets, and all our global communications systems would fail. This would cause complete chaos due to our reliance on all of these things. This happened in 1859 when the Aurora Borealis could be seen from Cuba, compasses were rendered useless and telegraph systems failed. This was caused by a CME also known as a solar superstorm. How long it would last though is anyones guess.

Our HF SSB used to get very whoopy when there was solar activity. Played hell with reception on the lower frequencies generally used for School of Air and the Galah sessions.

[kaz3g]

I've had my Jeppesson Sanderson alloy "Flight Computer" (love the name) for over 40 years & still use it to keep my memory of how to navigate manually going. It is a great tool when the batteries go flat. I use the magenta line on the phones little screen and have the pencil line on the map on the seat beside me so I can check landmarks way ahead.

Me too. Still keep it in the side pocket along with pencil, eraser, protractor and ruler. Charts in the flight bag.

[kaz3g]

Well, I’m looking at retirement and a move to the Gippsland Lakes. I’ll probably have to sell the Auster. I have a nice cabin cruiser with 400 hp on twin legs in mind so I’m refreshing my Marine Certificate of Competency and trying to remember how to navigate on water rather than in the air.

 

I've still got my dividers, parallel rule etc and the theory is much the same. But a lot more obstacles to collide with at the same HASL as the hull! Boat has two radios, two sounders, chart plotter but no radar at this stage. Have to fix that. I just purchased a very neet chart app for the iPad which covers all Australian waters, enclosed and open, for a very reasonable price and does great automatic planning if you don’t want to be fussed inputing waypoints yourself. It also links the chart plotter, sounders and other goodies. BUT, I’ll also be making sure I have paper with me as well.

 

Feeling a bit nervous about leaving work - it has been so much of my life - but had a good Zoom session with youngest in Singapore and he was very encouraging.

[Flightrite]

Well, I’m looking at retirement and a move to the Gippsland Lakes. I’ll probably have to sell the Auster. I have a nice cabin cruiser with 400 hp on twin legs in mind so I’m refreshing my Marine Certificate of Competency and trying to remember how to navigate on water rather than in the air.

 

I've still got my dividers, parallel rule etc and the theory is much the same. But a lot more obstacles to collide with at the same HASL as the hull! Boat has two radios, two sounders, chart plotter but no radar at this stage. Have to fix that. I just purchased a very neet chart app for the iPad which covers all Australian waters, enclosed and open, for a very reasonable price and does great automatic planning if you don’t want to be fussed inputing waypoints yourself. It also links the chart plotter, sounders and other goodies. BUT, I’ll also be making sure I have paper with me as well.

 

Feeling a bit nervous about leaving work - it has been so much of my life - but had a good Zoom session with youngest in Singapore and he was very encouraging.

 

You are dead a long time! Do it sooner than latter! I retried at 60 from a very well paid job ( not now the industry is stuffed!)

I know quite a few senior pilots who lived and breathed only their work , no other interests. pretty sad actually as now they are borderline crazy!

Edited May 7, 2020 by Flightrite