Besler Steam Plane

[Flightrite]

Steam powered engines in planes was left behind a hundred plus years ago, now I wonder why??

[facthunter]

The latent heat of Vapourisation of WATER will ALWAYS make steam inefficient. You can't avoid it. It's the "Thing" that makes cyclones work when it's acting in reverse to what it does in a steam engine. Forget it, except as a historical phase. You can prove it's not going to be efficient without trying to make things all over again. Nev

[onetrack]

Anyone who builds a model steam engine using a Coke bottle pressurised to 100 psi, needs his head examined!!

 

Steel boilers built to operate at 100 psi need an extensive examination, along with engineering calculations being provided, just so a Boiler Certificate that authorises its use, can be issued!!

 

I utilise a technique to rejuvenate pressure-pak spray cans of paint that have run low on pressure - by holding them on the floor and pressing my air blowgun over the plastic tube of the spray can, after I've removed the spray nozzle.

I then apply the trigger on the blowgun to force air pressure from the air compressor into the can (you need to hold some rag or paper towel around the join point, to prevent errant sprays of paint!).

 

This usually works just fine for nearly all spray cans, with the compressor pressure switch shutoff set at just over 100 psi. The "rejuvenated" cans usually get an adequate increase in pressure, to be able to completely empty the can.

However, last night I was doing this to a spray can that still had about a quarter of the contents in it. As I finished pressurising it, and lifted it off the floor, I heard a loud POP!

 

Puzzled, I lifted the can to examine it - only to find the normally-inverted base of the can had completely blown out, and was now the exact reverse of its normal inverted shape!

Luckily, the bottom join still held! - or today, I'd be telling you the story of the exploding paint can disaster!!

[facthunter]

Your Version of it would probably be "coloured" somewhat. Nev

[Bruce Tuncks]

You can mimic the effect of altitude by using a fluid more volatile than water, for example ether. ( once in Alice Springs, I undid a bottle of ether and it boiled. )

This appears attractive in that you can boil ether in an ordinary solar water-heater. So why not have a "steam" engine powered by a solar heater ? Alas the second law of thermodynamics says that the temperature difference between boiler and condenser ( or exhaust) determines the max possible efficiency.

Onetrack, do you have an estimate at the pressure in a spray can? What is the propellant normally used?

[Gerryc]

Electrical story.

Electrician was up ladder with apprentice holding ladder.Electricians leg starts shaking around so apprentice kicks ladder out from under him dumping him on the ground.

What the hell was that for the Electrician asked.

I thought you were getting a shock the Apprentice replied.

No I dropped a screw down inside my trousers and was shaking it out.

[onetrack]

Bruce, I was under the impression the normal factory pressure in spray cans was around 100 psi. I found a can manufacturers advertising presentation that says, in the U.S., the lowest quality can must be able to withstand 140 psi before deformation and 210 psi before they burst.

This is basically safe transportation requirements, with the need for cans to be able to be left in the sun for a period in hot climates. I have seen cans burst when left in hot cars in mid-Summer.

I think I just got a fairly old can that was built to minimum requirements. It was a Rust-Oleum can, but I didn't check where it was manufactured.

Not sure what the propellant is today, it used to be butane, nowadays, I think they use CO2.

 

http://southernaerosol.com/Power%20Point/Spring%20'13%20pdf's/Spring%20'13%20101%20.pdf's/DSC%20Aero101%20Kevin%20Richards%20TWO%20PIECE%20CAN.pdf

 

This bloke in the video below, got a little more sophisticated than me, but the technique is identical.

 

[old man emu]

There are lots of videos on Youtube showing how to get the last drops out of a pressure can by recharging the can with compressed air. They usually say to use 90 psi. Other videos will show you how to put a tyre valve stem into a pressure can so that the you can refill the useful contents, then insert the valve core and pressurize the can.

 

Steam powered engines in planes was left behind a hundred plus years ago, now I wonder why?

 

Sarcasm or a real question? I'll take it as a real question.

 

Why not have steam power? Who would have thought that diesel engines would work in small aircraft? We know that the Junkers Jumo 205 aircraft engine worked for the Germans. It was successful as a power unit for non-combat applications such as the Blohm & Voss Ha 139 airliner. Its more fuel-efficient operation lent itself for use on Germany's few maritime patrol flying boat designs during World War II, such as the BV 138 and BV 222. These were all big aircraft. How many cars were powered by diesel engines in the mid-20th Century? Not nearly as many as now.

 

70 years of development in materials science has improved the power to weight ratio of these engines and the efficiency of their energy conversion. Why not steam engines?

 

The big difference between Internal Combustion Engines (ICE) and steam engines is how the pressure that moves the piston is created. In an ICE, the high pressure gas is created by burning fuel inside a confined space (the cylinder). In a steam engine, the high pressure gas is created outside the confined space and introduced to it. In both cases, the flow of gas into, and out of the confined space is controlled by a valve system. It would be quite possible to convert an ICE to a steam engine simply by connecting the steam supply to the intake manifold. (Disregarding rusting) It is interesting to note that a steam engine, like an electric motor, produces maximum torque as soon as it is started.

 

Here is a video which shows two types of boilers used to produce steam for industrial purposes.

 

The dryback boiler design would be most suitable for adaption to a vehicle engine as the fuel burn is not continuous. Once maximum pressure has been reached, the fuel burner is turned off (or back to just a pilot light) until the steam pressure drops to a determined level. This is exactly the way a workshop air compressor and tank work. It would not take much to miniaturize the design of an industrial boiler to a size suitable for a small vehicle power plant. The flame is contained within the structure of the boiler, and for a small engine, one can imagine that a 9 kg bottle of propane would last a while if the air/fuel mixture was set correctly.

[facthunter]

It's not the boiling point that matters or vapour pressure or anything like that. Its the "Change of State" occurring and that often involves an energy release or intake.. It's called the "Latent heat of vapourisation" and water just happens to involve a lot of energy transferring from liquid to gas because that happens to be a "property" of it.. its 4.2 Joules/gram or something (from memory) long ago. When it goes the other way as when clouds form, heat is given out and they go very high and big cyclones give out energy equal to Atomic Bombs from this energy source, coupled with the earth's rotation (Coriolis force) and pressure gradient. Nev

[Flightrite]

There are lots of videos on Youtube showing how to get the last drops out of a pressure can by recharging the can with compressed air. They usually say to use 90 psi. Other videos will show you how to put a tyre valve stem into a pressure can so that the you can refill the useful contents, then insert the valve core and pressurize the can.

 

 

 

Sarcasm or a real question? I'll take it as a real question.

 

Why not have steam power? Who would have thought that diesel engines would work in small aircraft? We know that the Junkers Jumo 205 aircraft engine worked for the Germans. It was successful as a power unit for non-combat applications such as the Blohm & Voss Ha 139 airliner. Its more fuel-efficient operation lent itself for use on Germany's few maritime patrol flying boat designs during World War II, such as the BV 138 and BV 222. These were all big aircraft. How many cars were powered by diesel engines in the mid-20th Century? Not nearly as many as now.

 

70 years of development in materials science has improved the power to weight ratio of these engines and the efficiency of their energy conversion. Why not steam engines?

 

The big difference between Internal Combustion Engines (ICE) and steam engines is how the pressure that moves the piston is created. In an ICE, the high pressure gas is created by burning fuel inside a confined space (the cylinder). In a steam engine, the high pressure gas is created outside the confined space and introduced to it. In both cases, the flow of gas into, and out of the confined space is controlled by a valve system. It would be quite possible to convert an ICE to a steam engine simply by connecting the steam supply to the intake manifold. (Disregarding rusting) It is interesting to note that a steam engine, like an electric motor, produces maximum torque as soon as it is started.

 

Here is a video which shows two types of boilers used to produce steam for industrial purposes.

 

The dryback boiler design would be most suitable for adaption to a vehicle engine as the fuel burn is not continuous. Once maximum pressure has been reached, the fuel burner is turned off (or back to just a pilot light) until the steam pressure drops to a determined level. This is exactly the way a workshop air compressor and tank work. It would not take much to miniaturize the design of an industrial boiler to a size suitable for a small vehicle power plant. The flame is contained within the structure of the boiler, and for a small engine, one can imagine that a 9 kg bottle of propane would last a while if the air/fuel mixture was set correctly.

 

I thought we where talking about steam engines here not diesels?

Anyway seeing as there are NO steam powered planes currently plying our airways that kinda says it all wouldn't you say!?

[kgwilson]

I'd like to see someone have a go. I wonder how much lighter you could make a steam engine to produce 150HP now with modern materials compared to 230 kgs that powered the Travel Air back in 1933.

[Old Koreelah]

One advantage of steam power is its ability to use a wide variety of fuels; the most efficient IC engines require high refined liquid fuel, plus advanced filters to protect their injectors.

In the light of recent stresses on our supply chains, a modern steamer might find a role, but perhaps not in the air.

[facthunter]

You need a boiler, water and condenser as well. It will never be lighter than you could build an infernal combustion jigger if you tried a bit, A V4 would be the best for crankshaft length, block rigidity and piston inertia even ness. Nev

[Geoff_H]

You need a boiler, water and condenser as well. It will never be lighter than you could build an infernal combustion jigger if you tried a bit, A V4 would be the best for crankshaft length, block rigidity and piston inertia even ness. Nev

I would think that a steam turbine would be much lighter than a piston engine

[old man emu]

It will never be lighter than you could build an infernal combustion jigger

 

NEVER say, "Never."

Man will never fly. Man will never go to the Moon. Man will never give up.

[old man emu]

I would think that a steam turbine would be much lighter than a piston engine

 

See. Someone with other experiences has proposed an alternative to a piston-based system.

[Geoff_H]

What about a Stirling engine if fuel is unimportant.

Maybe even coal?. Diesel made his engine to run on pulverised coal. He used oil to start the engine. Then he switched to pulverised coal, the wear was excessive on coal so it ended up oil only

[Bruce Tuncks]

IF the "high temperature source" for an IC engine is the combustion temperature then it easily beats any usual steam temperature and so it will be more efficient thermodynamically.

And I can't get my head around just why you can't build a "steam" engine using ether and a solar heater. If the ether boils at 40 C and condenses at 20 C then you would think an engine powered by a solar hot-water panel and condensed with an evaporative water-cooled condenser would work just fine. Apparently it doesn't produce enough power to make the exercise worth while.. bugger huh.

[onetrack]

I was under the impression that Rudolf Diesel initially tried to run his diesel engine on various fuel sources, but ended up running it on peanut oil, which was in abundance at that time.

[Geoff_H]

IF the "high temperature source" for an IC engine is the combustion temperature then it easily beats any usual steam temperature and so it will be more efficient thermodynamically.

And I can't get my head around just why you can't build a "steam" engine using ether and a solar heater. If the ether boils at 40 C and condenses at 20 C then you would think an engine powered by a solar hot-water panel and condensed with an evaporative water-cooled condenser would work just fine. Apparently it doesn't produce enough power to make the exercise worth while.. bugger huh.

A long time ago a guy called Carnot discovered a whole heap of rules about energy systems. One rule talks about the temperature that arrives at the engine and the temperature that it leaves. Generally, and don't quote this as it's far more complex, set both temperatures to degrees Kelvin, then the maximum energy that you can get out of the system is the difference between the temperatures divided by the higher temperature. As -273 deg Kelvin is hard to get 100% efficiency is out of the question. If your hot source is 273 Celcius and rejected temperature is 0deg C then it is 543 /273, or 50%. So the higher the high temperature and the lower the rejected temperature the more you can get out of the engine.

[Geoff_H]

I have proposed using a reverse air conditioning system with a pump using Solar heat and ambient heat to make electricity using the motor as a generator and using normal refrigerants. The efficiency is around 5 to 12%.The solar farm would be huge. ?

[Bruce Tuncks]

Isn't it against the law to have carnot knowledge?

[onetrack]

Steam engines are making a comeback as a very efficient power generation system for invidual properties or remote towns or communities.

 

https://reneweconomy.com.au/return-of-the-steam-engine-cheap-storage-for-solar-34662/

[Geoff_H]

Steam engines are making a comeback as a very efficient power generation system for invidual properties or remote towns or communities.

 

https://reneweconomy.com.au/return-of-the-steam-engine-cheap-storage-for-solar-34662/

The power for Birdsville uses the Organic Carnot Cycle, basically what I described in my post. They have a large amount of low temperature heat. Works well. CSIRO have tested the system in Victoria. They would not reveal the details of success or not. The Newcastle project should work well. Storage for energy can be hot water heaters, elements for backup in cold days

[hihosland]

IF the "high temperature source" for an IC engine is the combustion temperature then it easily beats any usual steam temperature and so it will be more efficient thermodynamically.

And I can't get my head around just why you can't build a "steam" engine using ether and a solar heater. If the ether boils at 40 C and condenses at 20 C then you would think an engine powered by a solar hot-water panel and condensed with an evaporative water-cooled condenser would work just fine. Apparently it doesn't produce enough power to make the exercise worth while.. bugger huh.

latent heat of vapourisation ether 377 Kj/kg

of water it is 2256 Kj/kg

that is why an ether steam engine would not be very efficient

AFAIK no other liquid comes close I think that ammonia and ethyl alcohol and perhaps some refrigerants are the next best candidates however their levels are less than half that of water.

Water is special.