Aircraft Maintenance Logbook Review Service

[jackc]

Just see that RAAus are offering this service via a third party, cost is $199 and not sure IF that is a one off?

It was set up as a result of a member survey, to help with logbook compliance?

what are peoples thoughts on this?

[Bruce Tuncks]

gosh jackc, I wouldn't have a compliant logbook if it was given a hostile examination. And I'm not going to be extorted $199. So I might see you in jail huh.

[Jim McDowall]

This is what happens when member based organisations seek income sources beyond membership fees. Over time members just become milch cows as the real reason for the organisation (and hence the existence of a membership base) is lost over time and its own corporate interests overide those of members.

[Downunder]

I would rather a well maintained aircraft and a poorly maintained log book......than vice versa.

I'll be putting that $199 into my aircraft and giving the "review" a miss I think.... thanks.....

[phantomphixer]

I would rather a well maintained aircraft and a poorly maintained log book......than vice versa.

I'll be putting that $199 into my aircraft and giving the "review" a miss I think.... thanks.....

There’s no reason why you can’t have both. A well maintained log book can assist in having a well maintained aircraft if everything is correctly recorded. It all becomes a future reference to aid troubleshooting and trend monitoring etc.

I agree that I wouldn’t pay someone $199 to review it.

[jackc]

There’s no reason why you can’t have both. A well maintained log book can assist in having a well maintained aircraft if everything is correctly recorded. It all becomes a future reference to aid troubleshooting and trend monitoring etc.

I agree that I wouldn’t pay someone $199 to review it.

I think they also supply a POH and all the ADs and other relevant information for your chosen aircraft with updates?

[M61A1]

Is the third party the same third party that does the maintenance courses?

[jackc]

Is the third party the same third party that does the maintenance courses?

 

Flight Safety Solutions.......

[KRviator]

A company that was only incorporated in October 2019, which looks to be run by Stuart Erskine, who owns or is affiliated with BreezyLog, an electronic logbook they're toting as an alternative to paper-based versions and which he has been spruiking on the RAAus FB page.

 

I think I'll pass. What are they going to say? Your logbook is not compliant, therefore you're in breach of CAO 100.5, you're grounded! And an instant criminal because 99.9999999999999995% of aviation legislation in Australia is a Strict Liability offence. And because we change our Privacy Policy willy-nilly with no notice to the membership, we're dobbing on you to CASA because our Privacy Policy says we can!

[Thruster88]

IMHO this push for log book compliance will have no impact on reducing accidents. Maintenance compliance is a distraction from the real problem, the nut holding the stick. This component causes 99.99% of all accidents yet only gets 1 hour of questionable maintenance every two years. I form this view having read every ATSB report for the last 30 years.

[440032]

Some years ago I was asked by a fella to go look at an aircraft that was for sale. He just couldn't get there at that time. I knew the aircraft and the owner (who had passed away). First thing I went for was the logbook. There was not a single entry in it for the last 15 years and no mention of the three prop strikes I personally knew it had experienced. Two tip onto nose events, and one fence hit. The aircraft had been flying occasionally in those 15 years, and had been flown from location A to location B about a year before I saw it again. Conveyed that info to the interested buyer, he ended up buying it as a grubby and tired airframe with a worthless engine and no genuine maintenance records. He had a new engine built and professionally installed, and lots of other work done to get it up to usable level again.

Moral of the story is: Logbooks only reveal what is put into them, which may not be everything that has happened to the aircraft.

[Thruster88]

There are two certainties with log books. Not everything that has happened to the aircraft will be in the log book and not everything that is in the log book has happened to the aircraft.

[old man emu]

To get a fair price comparison, ask a LAME how much he charges for inspecting the engine and airframe log books, Maintenance Release form and ADs/Service Bulletins during the course of an Annual/100 Hourly. I bet that most LAMEs don't charge for that essential examination when setting up the worksheets for the job.

 

The other thing is that logbook compliance is only as good as the last good entry. I've seen logbook entries that are scant in recording what has been done, inspected or replaced during service, and others that have complete details of what was done.

 

Further, it is the aircraft's owner who is responsible for ensuring that the manufacturer's maintenance schedule is followed, and that ADs and Service Bulletins have been attended to. If you are going to have your aircraft services by someone else, then when you drop off the keys, you should also drop off the results of your searches into published material relating to your aircraft. Further, you should insist that logbook entries are comprehensive and complete, based on the published material.

[jackc]

A company that was only incorporated in October 2019, which looks to be run by Stuart Erskine, who owns or is affiliated with BreezyLog, an electronic logbook they're toting as an alternative to paper-based versions and which he has been spruiking on the RAAus FB page.

 

I think I'll pass. What are they going to say? Your logbook is not compliant, therefore you're in breach of CAO 100.5, you're grounded! And an instant criminal because 99.9999999999999995% of aviation legislation in Australia is a Strict Liability offence. And because we change our Privacy Policy willy-nilly with no notice to the membership, we're dobbing on you to CASA because our Privacy Policy says we can!

 

This, reads like a potential horror story and I would have to say the handwritten entries in a logbook would be worth more in a court of law than some printout of a computer that could have been doctored?

[jackc]

Some years ago I was asked by a fella to go look at an aircraft that was for sale. He just couldn't get there at that time. I knew the aircraft and the owner (who had passed away). First thing I went for was the logbook. There was not a single entry in it for the last 15 years and no mention of the three prop strikes I personally knew it had experienced. Two tip onto nose events, and one fence hit. The aircraft had been flying occasionally in those 15 years, and had been flown from location A to location B about a year before I saw it again. Conveyed that info to the interested buyer, he ended up buying it as a grubby and tired airframe with a worthless engine and no genuine maintenance records. He had a new engine built and professionally installed, and lots of other work done to get it up to usable level again.

Moral of the story is: Logbooks only reveal what is put into them, which may not be everything that has happened to the aircraft.

Well, there is a regulatory problem right there, 15 years no entries and still flying. So, no audits at all? The regulator is in neglect of ensuring compliance with its own regulations. In the next breath they don’t mind making all sorts of press releases about non compliance and its consequences. Maybe they hired Dracula to manage the Blood Bank:-(

[kgwilson]

I put every incident and maintenance issue and all flights plus number of landings in my aircraft log book. It's a record of the history of my aircraft for my information and a new owner if I ever sell it.

[onetrack]

If I had a dollar for every time I saw "the maintenance records provided were incomplete, or - the maintenance records were missing", in aviation crash reports, I'd have enough for a decent holiday.

 

How is a maintenance review of a logbook costing $199 going to ensure that the owner is 100% compliant if the owner is determined to avoid mentioning incidents, or is just simply lax at providing a full and extensive description of what was carried out?

 

"Compliance" is simply ensuring your logbook meets regulatory requirements, it doesn't necessarily mean it's an accurate reflection of what has been done to the aircraft.

[Thruster88]

If I had a dollar for every time I saw "the maintenance records provided were incomplete, or - the maintenance records were missing", in aviation crash reports, I'd have enough for a decent holiday.

 

How is a maintenance review of a logbook costing $199 going to ensure that the owner is 100% compliant if the owner is determined to avoid mentioning incidents, or is just simply lax at providing a full and extensive description of what was carried out?

 

"Compliance" is simply ensuring your logbook meets regulatory requirements, it doesn't necessarily mean it's an accurate reflection of what has been done to the aircraft.

 

The ATSB will always mention the maintenance records although they may have no bearing on the accident.

 

The "log book review service" as I understand it does not actually look at the log book, it is providing a list of all AD's, service bulletins and CAO 100.5 that need to be compiled with. Hopefully this is done for a specific aircraft serial number.

[Flightrite]

If you fly around in yr A/C with log books that are not up to date then you do so at yr own risk!

[Yenn]

For the price I reckon it will not be used much, it seems to be the usual rip off.

Concerning log books, I reckon most of them would not be worth the paper they are written on. I know of several instances which should have been entered and never were. I also heard of a L2 owner who sold is plane complete with hangar, to a bloke who only wanted the hangar. There were no logbook entries since the day it first flew and it was therefore worthless. Especially as the owner had it for sale for several years for a highly inflated price, so it sat and deteriorated.

My own logbook does not detail every flight as I believe that is not required. All flights are entered on the maintenance release, plus in my pilots log book.

I reckon using the GA maintenance release is far preferable to whatever RAAus is expecting us to do, plus it is legal.

[Yenn]

If you fly around with a maintenance logbook you are stupid. For GA it is illegal to carry the maintenance log in the plane. Reason being that if the plane crashes the logbook will possibly be destroyed.

You want the logbook to survive longer than the aircraft.

[Flightrite]

If you fly around with a maintenance logbook you are stupid. For GA it is illegal to carry the maintenance log in the plane. Reason being that if the plane crashes the logbook will possibly be destroyed.

You want the logbook to survive longer than the aircraft.

Stupid?

[kgwilson]

I have what is called "Standard Aircraft Log" book. It includes columns for Date, Tacho time, Todays Flight, Total Time in Service and Description of Inspections, Tests, Repairs and Alterations. The descriptions column is also qualified with "Entries must be endorsed with name rating and certificate number of Technician or repair facility". In the comments section of the Aircraft Details page at the front I have noted "All maintenance carried out my me with name and number also noting that I am PIC and Log entries are initialled (my initials) unless otherwise noted in the log entry.

 

This is very clear and concise and unambiguous. I have had an L2 do a few things when he wanted to keep his skill sets up to date & have had the log endorsed by him. I have initialled these entries as well as I kept a very close eye on what he did.

 

I wouldn't have it any other way & wouldn't go near an aircraft that had a poor log. It indicates to me a poor maintenance and safety culture of the owner.

[Flightrite]

I use this form in RA.

[jackc]

Had a bit more of a look and it’s tied to Breezylog, that appears to be a WEB interface? Must run cloud based? Now Breezylog wants $499 and that seems a setup fee? Then $22 per month? Went to it’s data registration page that came up in Spanish. With the information it needs, that data can also be used to set up the new AMLRS software. So, IF you already have Breezylog then most of your data can be imported across to AMLRS?

Being cloud based goes against all my principles of data execution and management. Third party data storage is the scourge of the earth. I will keep all my data backed up myself, thanks.

so, it looks like AMLRS or Breezylog are for not me.