question Coolant Advice "again"

[facthunter]

.Pureau is pure water. Just what you need for the radiator when mixed with a concentrate. That's what it's made for as well as batteries, windscreens steam boilers etc. It's readily available and the label will set your mind at rest no matter how fussy you are.. I've done chemistry at tertiary level and taught it in High school and built my own batteries when I was younger.. I have NO problem with someone saying their pure water is non ionic If they said it wasn't I would not use it for the above purposes I'm also a nationally accredited Viticulturist and know that water containing mud and mineral salts will make some sprays like glyphosate, ineffective ..Nev

[Blueadventures]

FYI - B Flood advice on using Castrol Radicool SF-O "................. cannot see a problem with it, it seems to tick all the boxes, so try it at the usual 50/50 with demineralised water."

 

So it seems I will be moving to SF-O

Skippy Can you clarify if what you are saying is the green (Catrol radicool) cannot be used in Rotax 912's; or as I read your post Floods are saying that they see no reason that the castrol radicool SF-O can also be used (Your preferred as multiple engines you have will use it) in the rotax 912.

[skippydiesel]

Skippy Can you clarify if what you are saying is the green (Catrol radicool) cannot be used in Rotax 912's; or as I read your post Floods are saying that they see no reason that the castrol radicool SF-O can also be used (Your preferred as multiple engines you have will use it) in the rotax 912.

 

 

Hi Blueadventure,

 

Castrol Radicool Concentrate (green) was recommended (by B Flood) as the Australian replacement for the Rotax recommended Castrol Antifreeze All-Climate or Castrol Antifreeze Anti-Boil (both green and both no longer available in Au at the time).

 

I have been using Castrol Radicool Concentrate (CRC) for about 10 years without any apparent ill effects.

 

I was peripherally aware that CRC came close but was not preciously what Rotax were recommending and that Castrol made a product (not available in Au) for Europe that was precisely the right stuff.

 

I believe that Castrol Radicool SF-O (red) is probably the right stuff and is now available in Au - unfortunately, if you want the concentrate, it only comes as a 20 L unit. You can purchase a pre mix version in, I think, 5 L units.

 

Supporting my belief is:

 

• Airborne's recommendation for coolant in their Rotax 912 powered aircraft is "Nulon - Red Long Life Coolant, Nulon Part No. RLL20 or RLL5" - a product that meets the same specifications as SF-O
  
• USA Rotax web sites recommending Toyota Long Life Coolant (amongst others) in Rotax 912 engines - another product that appears to meets the same specifications as SF-O
  
• Now advice from B Flood - ".......... cannot see a problem with it, it seems to tick all the boxes, so try it at the usual 50/50 with demineralised water."
  

 

In my case, I will be able to use the SF-O in our Ford Ranger's and my sons motor bike and I hope (yet to find out) my wife's Hyundai AS WELL as my Rotax 912 - a win win for me.

 

So in short - nothing preventing you continuing to use CRC (green) in your Rotax 912

Edited May 19, 2020 by skippydiesel

[skippydiesel]

I am just a dumb farmer, a non-ionic surfactant is chemically inert, it is used when a reaction with the main chemicals would be undesirable.

 

H i Thruster - thanks for that its been about 40 or more years since, I did anything much with Ag Chemicals.

[skippydiesel]

.Pureau is pure water. Just what you need for the radiator when mixed with a concentrate. That's what it's made for as well as batteries, windscreens steam boilers etc. It's readily available and the label will set your mind at rest no matter how fussy you are.. I've done chemistry at tertiary level and taught it in High school and built my own batteries when I was younger.. I have NO problem with someone saying their pure water is non ionic If they said it wasn't I would not use it for the above purposes I'm also a nationally accredited Viticulturist and know that water containing mud and mineral salts will make some sprays like glyphosate, ineffective ..Nev

 

As usual Nev, you avoid my point - pure water (call it what you will) does not have a flavour/taste. Your comment "Tastes good too if you are going where the local water is suss." is, in itself, suss - my point (much simplified) is - do not put tasty water in your cooling system (or battery). That which gives it flavour/taste is not good for the system

[Blueadventures]

Hi Blueadventure,

 

Castrol Radicool Concentrate (green) was recommended (by B Flood) as the Australian replacement for the Rotax recommended Castrol Antifreeze All-Climate or Castrol Antifreeze Anti-Boil (both green and both no longer available in Au at the time).

 

I have been using Castrol Radicool Concentrate (CRC) for about 10 years without any apparent ill effects.

 

I was peripherally aware that CRC came close but was not preciously what Rotax were recommending and that Castrol made a product (not available in Au) for Europe that was precisely the right stuff.

 

I believe that Castrol Radicool SF-O (red) is probably the right stuff and is now available in Au - unfortunately, if you want the concentrate, it only comes as a 20 L unit. You can purchase a pre mix version in, I think, 5 L units.

 

Supporting my belief is:

 

• Airborne's recommendation for coolant in their Rotax 912 powered aircraft is "Nulon - Red Long Life Coolant, Nulon Part No. RLL20 or RLL5" - a product that meets the same specifications as SF-O
  
• USA Rotax web sites recommending Toyota Long Life Coolant (amongst others) in Rotax 912 engines - another product that appears to meets the same specifications as SF-O
  
• Now advice from B Flood - ".......... cannot see a problem with it, it seems to tick all the boxes, so try it at the usual 50/50 with demineralised water."
  

 

In my case, I will be able to use the SF-O in our Ford Ranger's and my sons motor bike and I hope (yet to find out) my wife's Hyundai AS WELL as my Rotax 912 - a win win for me.

 

So in short - nothing preventing you continuing to use CRC (green) in your Rotax 912

Thanks saved ring Floods as years ago told as your post re the green concentrate. Cheers

[M61A1]

Your comment "Tastes good too if you are going where the local water is suss." is, in itself, suss - my point (much simplified) is - do not put tasty water in your cooling system (or battery). That which gives it flavour/taste is not good for the system

Some of us like the fact that deionised or demin water has no crap in it which means it tastes good to us. A bit like good rainwater....the less that's in it , the better it tastes.

Your point is subjective.

[facthunter]

Local water is either chlorinated or from a bore in the outback. Any decent restaurant doesn't put chlorinated (town) water on the table either.

Changing it to "tasty" and having "flavour" is far from the PURE water which I was referring to in My comment...…...……"..Is in itself suss." according to Skip. Why ridicule, by deliberate distortion, what's put there in good faith. ? Nev

[skippydiesel]

Nev: No ridicule intended - within the context - advice/opinion regarding water quality to use in an engine cooling system - my comment is reasonable, fair, objective & factual (quite possibly pedantic) - I say again purified water/pure water has no taste - so "Tastes good" the operative word tastes strongly suggests elements are present, within the water, that will make the drinker enjoy having their taste buds stimulated - a good feeling/sensation. Such water should not be used for cooling systems/battery's.

 

I accept that many may enjoy drinking water that they know to be pure. The sensation of cool water in the mouth. The slaking of thirst. Confidence in having no nasty pathogens /chemicals present. Taste will not be stimulated in this context - so no taste.

Others enjoy water with a mineral content - Taste will be stimulated in this drink, along with the other sensations mentioned erlier. Hard water usually contains relativly high concentrations of minerals, particularly calcium. - a lot of people prefer to drink this tasty water.

 

Whats the problem?? Me thinks you probably are unwilling to acknowledge your misuse of the word "tastes" when describing the "Purea" water - good to drink yes, tasty (if it is pure) no.

[onetrack]

We're getting in dogma here with water taste. The taste of water is subjective, everyone tastes things slightly differently. The good "taste" of pure water is usually compared to regular tap water or bore water, both of which are mineralised.

 

Even the experts can't agree as to whether pure water has a taste or not. But many people reckon it does.

 

https://www.popsci.com/article/science/ask-anything-what-does-water-taste/

[skippydiesel]

Onetrack - read my last statement - my comments were and still are, predominantly focused on advice/recommendations for engine cooling systems. In this forum, am not about to get involved in the subjectivity of taste, which is a very individual matter.

[Bruce Tuncks]

Pure water does contain ions. It has a pH of 7 because the concentration of H+ ions is something like log base 10 of the hydrogen ion concentration in mols per cc or something like that, which produces a number of 7. Pure water is neutral since for every H+ ion there is an OH- ion, and this is why the pH scale has a midpoint of 7.

Sorry to be pedantic but in a previous life I once taught some chemistry to students who were wrongly let into a course which demanded some chemistry and the real chemistry lecturer refused to have anything to do with them.

In real life, I often wish I knew more real chemistry, like in this discussion of coolants.

[facthunter]

Pureau. Eau is water .I said compared to the worst of the outback water it tastes good. IT was a comparison. YOU DISTORTED what I said and CONTINUE to do so. I've made this clear but you ignore it. IF you are mixing your own coolant you need pure water. When have I suggested to use what YOU call TASTY and flavoured water? Thanks for stuffing up a perfectly good discussion. Hope you enjoyed your fun because I haven't. .. Nev

[pmccarthy]

Pure water wants to dissolve anything. If you put it in an engine it dissolves metals and such. It needs to have carefully selected ions in it to stop it being so hungry and aggressive.

[facthunter]

Perhaps you might explain how it does that and what would be the formula of any resulting compounds. You can get hydrates of some existing oxides It reacts with sodium and active metals but pure water is less reactive than water with (some) salts in it . Pure Water without oxygen present is pretty non reactive.. Nev

[skippydiesel]

Nev, I have no intention of offending you and if I have done so unintentionally, I apologise unreservedly.

 

I feel that my comments were factual and to the point - not a distortion. I merely pointed out what I understand to be an anomaly, in your otherwise excellent advice.

 

You are clearly a person of great breath and depth of knowledge, over many topics , particularity aviation matters. My admiration of this is genuine. You are not however infallible.

 

I am without doubt an argumentative bugger and will always reserve the right to comment on matters that I believe are incorrect or deserve my full support/commendation. Your comments have received and will continue to receive both from me.

 

Skippydiesel

[onetrack]

Pure Water without oxygen present is pretty non reactive..

 

The scientists don't agree with you, Nev. Pure water is quite reactive and will tend to chemically react with any compound that goes into it.

 

https://www.livescience.com/61302-does-pure-water-exist.html

[pmccarthy]

Water is called the "universal solvent" because it is capable of dissolving more substances than any other liquid. This is important to every living thing on earth. It means that wherever water goes, either through the air, the ground, or through our bodies, it takes along valuable chemicals, minerals, and nutrients. - USGS

[pmccarthy]

But the problem is that when water is distilled, or “stripped,” of its minerals and impurities, the resulting solution is composed of chemically imbalanced “ions.” This leaves distilled water “ionically hungry,” so it will actually strip electrons from the metals in a cooling system as it attempts to chemically re-balance itself. As it chemically removes electrons from the metals of cooling system components, distilled water eventually does extreme damage that could lead to cooling system failure. Why You Should Never Use Distilled Water in Your Cooling System |

[APenNameAndThatA]

I drank a small amount of distilled water once and it tasted very acidic. I invite you all to try the same experiment. My understanding of why is that in, say, rainwater the other ions in the water buffer the H+ ions. But distilled water is so pure that the H+ ions are unbuffered and act like an acid. I have no clue about why, for example, the unbuffered OH- ions don’t make the water taste basic. This is me agreeing with pmccarthy.

 

I am surprised no one has mentioned the obvious. Changing the colour of your coolant has little upside and a huge potential downside. You would have to be mad to even contemplate it. Disclaimer: 50 pilot; engineering qualification is I built a treehouse once.

[facthunter]

PMC you are quoting from an ADVERT for coolants. Giving elements and compounds the characteristics of animals ie Hungry for etc is not helpful. Water is pretty stable other wise we'd have a very good source of cheap fuel . Many things disso]ve well in water. that's a question of solubility. You mix pure water with coolant concentrates. River irrigation or town water are never recommended even for flushing unless you're stuck. Rain water is nature's distilled water but it is a bit contaminated by dust, nitrous oxides etc and whatever surfaces it might have run over and whatever is on them.. Nev

[skippydiesel]

 

I am surprised no one has mentioned the obvious. Changing the colour of your coolant has little upside and a huge potential downside. You would have to be mad to even contemplate it. Disclaimer: 50 pilot; engineering qualification is I built a treehouse once.

 

GDay ApenName...., The colour is just a dye. There are green, red, orange, blue and yellow coloured coolants. In Au green has been the predominant colour but now red seems to be taking over. The colours are a convenient "shorthand" for describing the coolant. The significance of the colour is in itself not high, there being a very loose convention, that GREEN is appropriate for certain, mainly older cooling system containing copper and copper alloys and RED is for more modern engines, particularise of a European type, with little or no copper in the cooling system. Also Europe has particular environmental restrictions on certain chemicals - the red coolants may fall within these requirements.

 

So having said the above - changing coolant can be:

• forced on you by the brand/type you were using becoming unavailable
  
• a more desirable product (cost / formulation / etc) becoming available
  

In my case I feel that the change from Radicool Concentrate (Green) to Radicool SF-O (Red) may more closely align with Rotax specifications and as I will be able to sue the Red over my road fleet (not the tractors) has cost & storage space benefits.

[facthunter]

I used to use the 400mm Castrol green concentrate till it became unavailable That's many years ago now. I then obtained a bulk supply of a CALTEX equivalent It's gone the same way.

. Many use a " coat the surface" action. Where you have DISSIMILAR metals you don't need an electrolite is you just end up with a battery and some things corroding fast. Active alloys like those containing magnesium are a particular problem. The instability of glycol is a concern also. You can also get erosion in fast flowing areas. I've seen Suzuki (CAR) head s eat through near the exhaust ports in less than 2 years allegedly due to the step in the cores alignment when it was cast. You often won't detect these things until water goes right through to the port in this case or the engine is dismantled. (Which is rare these days). Often you get corrosion on the head gasket surface as the glycol seeps through everything easily. Diesels get so called borer holes through the cylinder walls if not cared for. In the irrigated areas a bit of irrigation water is all it needs to sentence your tractor to death a few years later. Mistakenly adding mineral water would be a similar problem .Nev

[Bruce Tuncks]

The best car I ever had was a P76 6 cylinder which went for 600,000 k before the wife made me change it. I used boiled rainwater and after about 8 years it started running hot. I told the radiator guy that the radiator couldn't be blocked because I had the car since new and had looked after the cooling system.

He rang me at work and said " 2 pipes mate ". I said "2 pipes blocked ?" He said " 2 pipes not blocked".

That's when I started buying coolant. I used the green stuff because that is what they had at the shop.

[skippydiesel]

Hi Bruce, By saying "used boiled rainwater" do you mean you only used water or you used rain water coolant mix?

 

I own Daihatsu Rocky 2.8 Turbo 2.8 diesel, purchased new in 1985. Car now well north of 500,000 km on the clock. Started using Castrol Concentrate (green) then moved to the less costly Nulon coolant (green) at 50/50 mix. Car now well north of 500,000 km on the clock. Coolant replaced every 2 years , never flushed (except when changed from Castrol to Nulon) - looking through openings (with pencil torch) still looks brand new - no corrosion no, coating.

Edited May 21, 2020 by skippydiesel