question Jabiru J230/J430 MTOWs?

[marshallarts]

I'm sure someone here can enlighten me on this, and apologies if it is a really dumb question, but I have not spent any flying time in the RAA world (yet).

 

I am somewhat bemused by the information on the Jabiru website regarding the MTOWs of their J230/J430. If I were to buy a factory-built J230, it appears the MTOW is 600kg, which I assume is because they want it to fit into RAA parameters. If I buy a J230 kit, same deal. But if I buy a J430 kit, the MTOW is suddenly 760kg. Hang on - is this not the EXACT same airframe as the J230?? Does this mean that a J430 has to be VH registered? What if I bought a factory-built J230 and wanted to VH-register it - can that even be done? If so, could it (would it) be registered with a MTOW greater than 600kg? If my assumption that the J230 and J430 are structurally identical is correct, then the 600kg MTOW is clearly not a physical limitation of the structure. So it must be a regulatory thing, but it just doesn't make much sense to me. Neither is it clear to me why there is no factory-built J430 - I would have thought that would be a very popular model. Some illumination would be welcome.

 

And yes, I know I could ask Jabiru about this, but I am not a potential customer so don't need to waste their time.

[SplitS]

j430 has to be GA registered as it has 4 seats. The factory does not want the risk of building certified GA so do it your self and fly experimental. Or buy the 230 and fly RAAus where "their" maximum weight is 600kg's. Even tho the airframe can safetly fly at 760kg the regulations say no.

It's the the rules not the air-frame that is imposing the limits.

[marshallarts]

Ok thanks, that's more or less what I had thought. So if a J230 is VH registered, can it have 760kg MTOW? If not, why not?

[SSCBD]

Same I think for the sling 2, RAA here 600kg MTOW in South Africa where they are made 700kg - same aircraft.

[marshallarts]

Well, I'd have the same question about that aircraft - if VH registered, could/would the MTOW be 700kg?

[SSCBD]

Well, I'd have the same question about that aircraft - if VH registered, could/would the MTOW be 700kg?

I think so

[marshallarts]

Well I would certainly hope so. I'm very surprised the manufacturers aren't pushing this as hard as they can - 100kg of extra useful load, or 160kg in the case of the Jabiru, is an enormous increase in the usefulness of these aircraft types. Doesn't even crack a mention on the Jabiru website - but overall it's a pretty ordinary website anyway.

 

SSCBD, is that your aircraft above your name, a Risen? If yes, is it the only one in Oz? Have you posted anything about it?

[kgwilson]

The J230 can be loaded to 760kg and be within the load limits of the airframe. But the rules say 600kg is the maximum & so that is not legal as it is RA registered. The J430 is the exact same airframe with 2 extra seats and can be loaded to 760kg legally as it is VH registered. Simple, just fux@#n stupid rules.

[marshallarts]

On the Jabiru pricing and order form for the J230, the last optional item is VH registration at $2000, but there is nothing about what the implications of that are on MTOW, or anything else. So I'm still none the wiser. Maybe nobody has actually done that yet!

[kgwilson]

600kg is the maximum all up weight (maximum take off weight) allowed under RA-Aus registration. This has nothing to do with the weight limits of the airframe which in the case of the J230 is 760kg as specified by the manufacturer. The placard displayed on the panel on the RA-Aus registered J230 states WARNING. THIS AIRCRAFT IS LIMITED TO A MAXIMUM TAKEOFF WEIGHT OF 600KG. If you register it on the VH register the MTOW is the maximum as specified by the manufacturer Jabiru which is 760kg. Then you are subject to all of the requirements regarding maintenance of VH aircraft like paying a LAME.

[marshallarts]

Thanks, clarity at last perhaps. It's still beyond me why Jabiru (and other manufacturers) don't highight this in big bold letters on their websites. I did have a quick look at the Oz register and there are a handful of J230Ds that are VH registered, so a few owners have taken that path, maybe for this very reason. There are 60 or 70 VH registered Jabirus - most are the amateur-built J430s, and the other 2-seat models. I hear what you say about maintenance, but for me I think I would be paying a LAME to look after whatever aircraft I owned, regardless of its registration.

[Yenn]

If you build a Jabiru or any other aircraft and register it as experimental GA, you, the builder get to state what the max weight is. Of course if you build a plane which the factory says is 750kg and try to get it registered with 900kg, it may not be accepted by the Authorised Person who represents CASA.

[planesmaker]

A factory built J230 can be registered vh as an LSA which is limited to 600kg. The Lsa is the limiting factor.

[marshallarts]

My old brain wouldn't allow me to let this go, so I did ask the guys at Jabiru for their comment on it. The response was that ALL their factory-built aircraft are now built for the LSA rules, so ALL factory-built aircraft have an MTOW of 600kg (or even less for some of the 2-seaters). This is despite the fact that the J230-D does indeed have the same airframe as the J430 - it is the registration that sets the MTOW, not the aircraft structure, as pointed out above - I get that bit. But what I didn't get was that Jabiru will NOT sell a factory-built J230-D as other than LSA - even if you VH-register it, they will still specify the MTOW as 600kg. Seems daft to me, but there you go! So the only way to get a J230 with an MTOW of 760kg is to build it yourself, AND VH-register it, in which case it would be in the experimental category. You might as well build a J430 and take the rear seats out if you need/want to carry stuff, not people. It seems such a waste of all that carrying capacity to me, and an incredibly convoluted way of getting to use it - but what would I know? I'm guessing that it is a lot less expensive to get something certified for the LSA rules than for the GA rules, and that's why Jabiru won't sell a "GA" J230-D that they have built. Like so many things these days, it's all about money, and covering of backsides.

[jetjr]

They arent certified so can be registered in VH unless owner built ie experimental

LSA is a manufacturer managed standard, whatever they claim goes

Both a benefit and a problem for owners

In earlier versions, theres A and B model, one is for higher MTOW, other has claimed min stall.

Almost identical but some heavier wing bolts and main gear setup for the extra weight

[jetjr]

Cant edit, should say .........CANT be registered VH.......

[planesmaker]

lsa exists in vh registration too. So lsa j230 can be regoed vh.

[jetjr]

As experimental and then you would be constrained by 600 kg, all of Jabiru determinations AND lame maint

Not sure why you would

[planesmaker]

As a factory built lsa it is not an experimental it is registerable as vh lsa 600kg and yes lame maintenance. Build it yourself as vh experimental and have 700kg and owner/builder maintenance