Strife at Airservices Australia

[red750]

Read this report.

[onetrack]

Not in the least bit unsurprising. Bullying and sexual harrassment is widespread throughout the corporate world and numerous men have major problems treating women as equals, or as major contributors in the work arena.

The change needs to come right from the top. Sack all the senior management in ASA, and get replacements that have a different attitude.

[Flightrite]

Sadly bullying is part of the human make all the way back to the caveman days? Times have changed, attitudes havent?

[Yenn]

I don't know anything about their bullying, but from my dealings with the airservices staff other than those in the towers and centre they don't have much between the ears and that goes right to the top.

They are typical bureaucrats and once having made a decision they cannot change it, no matter how stupid it is.

It is impossible to get an airstrip that has not existed for over ten years taken off the charts.

[M61A1]

Not in the least bit unsurprising. Bullying and sexual harrassment is widespread throughout the corporate world and numerous men have major problems treating women as equals, or as major contributors in the work arena.

The change needs to come right from the top. Sack all the senior management in ASA, and get replacements that have a different attitude.

I disagree....Most western corporations have swung so far to the left with diversity and equity crap that generally women get away with far more than men ever would.

I suspect the reason that harassment and bullying are rife at Airservices would be because they moved the goal posts so that normal behaviour now fits bullying and harassment criteria.

I may be wrong, but I am extremely suspicious of the claims and smell a class action on the way, with money to be made for lawyers and their financiers.

[Flightrite]

I disagree....Most western corporations have swung so far to the left with diversity and equity crap that generally women get away with far more than men ever would.

I suspect the reason that harassment and bullying are rife at Airservices would be because they moved the goal posts so that normal behaviour now fits bullying and harassment criteria.

I may be wrong, but I am extremely suspicious of the claims and smell a class action on the way, with money to be made for lawyers and their financiers.

 

You could be right there re the goal posts theory, the line in the sand has shifted over the years to where it's a little blury! The attitude is still there but the repercussion net is getting wider all the time!

[onetrack]

There may be some industries where the pendulum against men has swung too far, but I know plenty of women, and have heard their stories of constant male harassment, bullying, and sidelining in the workplace.

I'm just glad I wasn't born a woman, they have to put up with a lot of shXX just in daily life, let alone lower wages, first to get sacked, having to be constantly on guard against the not-so-subtle innuendoes, and the regular demeaning of their efforts. I owe a fair portion of what little success I've achieved in this life, to strong women partners and a capable mother. All of them had to put up with a lot of shXX from other men, particularly when young and pretty.

[M61A1]

There may be some industries where the pendulum against men has swung too far, but I know plenty of women, and have heard their stories of constant male harassment, bullying, and sidelining in the workplace.

I'm just glad I wasn't born a woman, they have to put up with a lot of shXX just in daily life, let alone lower wages, first to get sacked, having to be constantly on guard against the not-so-subtle innuendoes, and the regular demeaning of their efforts. I owe a fair portion of what little success I've achieved in this life, to strong women partners and a capable mother. All of them had to put up with a lot of shXX from other men, particularly when young and pretty.

Most women I know reckon that the worst bullying comes from other women. Maybe WA is behind the times but women have had a pretty good go of it over here for at least the last twenty years Almost to the point of being outright anti-male and especially in government and public service. I have never witnessed men harass or bully women, but I have seen several guys lose jobs or nearly lose jobs due to unsubstantiated harassment claims when one of the women didn’t get their own way.

[kaz3g]

It’s strange to me how we still have men denying the reality that women live with.

 

Women haven’t had it so good that they still earn not much more than 80% of the male wage, they represent just a small fraction of those on corporate boards, they are more than 85% of victims of domestic violence, during Covid they have been five times more likely to have care of the children, and 22% of women compared to 5% of men have experience sexual harassment in the workplace.

[Old Koreelah]

Most women I know reckon that the worst bullying comes from other women...

Too right. The allegations of the women would not surprise me, nor would I be surprised if some women misuse newfound protections to advance their careers. I have personal experience of female sociopaths climbing the career ladder over the bleeding bodies of their colleagues.

[walrus]

Kaz, I worked for a female sociopath and they are no less repellant than their male colleagues.

 

Men and women have different personality traits and aggressive behaviours. Men physically fight and women scheme and lie.

 

The result of #metoo and #believethewoman, etc. Is going to be very nasty for women; as follows:

 

1. No male business executive is going to mentor any junior females.

 

2. Male business executives will not take one on one business meetings with women.

 

3. Male business executives will not socialize with workplace women.

 

1,2 and 3 are already happening. The current climate is such that an unproven allegation against a man is enough to destroy a career in any public company.

 

In private life, you are going to see the return of decorum and chaperones - for men in order to prevent allegations of misbehaviour that may be made ten or more years after the alleged party or event.

 

The next thing you are going to see is the return of the class system in spades. Men will only associate with women of their own class - it’s safer for your reputation that way. This particularly relates to families who have money because they are vulnerable to the threats these days from gold diggers.

 

On a personal note, I have one and a half young grand children who I will never associate with unless their parents are present. I will NEVER be alone or responsible for them. That is because if they turn out to be dysfunctional teenagers, I don’t want even the possibility of an allegation ever to be made against me......And it has happened to others already.

 

‘’This happens because there is already a social worker/ psychologist school that demonizes all men all the time and they are supported by their female colleagues in the judiciary and government. A simple meeting and a bit of coaching by a shrink and the next thing for a man is a visit from the police. The standard of proof required in making allegations is minute. Go read Clementine Ford...

Edited May 30, 2020 by walrus

[M61A1]

It’s strange to me how we still have men denying the reality that women live with.

 

Women haven’t had it so good that they still earn not much more than 80% of the male wage, they represent just a small fraction of those on corporate boards, they are more than 85% of victims of domestic violence, during Covid they have been five times more likely to have care of the children, and 22% of women compared to 5% of men have experience sexual harassment in the workplace.

Kaz, I have a great deal of respect for you, but:

There is a perfectly logical reason for the so called “gender pay gap” and it’s mostly to do with choices. It is illegal in this country to pay people less because of their gender, so real figures comparing apples with apples the hourly rates for the same job are the same.

One thing the so called "experts" forget to mention in their figures is that if a woman is not working and caring for kids, someone is still paying her and or supporting her while she does that. Whether it's child support or a working partner the money is still coming in but never accounted for. The "experts" also tend to be agencies set up and financed with the express objective to come up with numbers that support their cause otherwise they won't have a job.

I’m not sure where the DV stats came from, but from what I have researched they are wildly inaccurate.

http://www.oneinthree.com.au/overview/

 

I also suspect that the reason harassment numbers might be that high is because of the extremely broad definition where they can interpret almost anything they don’t like as harassment.

For the record: This is my experience. I have never been accused but have seen it in action particularly in large companies.

[red750]

Women are very cliquey. I worked in a large call centre where there were five or six women in team leader roles. The way they treated members of their team easily showed who was in the clique and who was not. I had one male team leader, and he was accused of sexual harassment by a well endowed female. I never saw anything untoward. I don't know if anything was proven, but he left shortly after to go to another job. Women can be very flirty towards male supervisors if they think they will get somewhere with it. I've been called gorgeous and eye candy by girls younger than my kids - damned if I know why. Men have to be so careful not to fall for the bait.

[Old Koreelah]

...On a personal note, I have one and a half young grand children who I will never associate with unless their parents are present. I will NEVER be alone or responsible for them. That is because if they turn out to be dysfunctional teenagers, I don’t want even the possibility of an allegation ever to be made against me......And it has happened to others already...

 

A thoughtful analysis. Luckily, most trends never continue to their logical conclusion. Eventually other forces steer events off in an unforeseen direction. I hope that is true of this trend.

 

How sad if you are denied the joys of grandchildren; some of my friends never will have grandies and I feel for them.

Perhaps you should do your bit to ensure they don't turn out to become dysfunctional teenagers.

[kgwilson]

Whenever there is a change in a situation and subsequent laws or rules are created to support the change there will be most who follow the path the change is created for but there will be extremes on both sides who for some reason feel aggrieved or extremely empowered. Some educational coaching towards the purpose for which the change was made may help but there are some who will not listen and their actions need to be dealt with. Often though nothing is done which leads to more discontent.

[spacesailor]

Hows this for Government racial policy.

I worked at a English foundry, One Englishman ( me ) a Welshman, A Hungarian, A Polish man, and a WHITE Pakistan man.

We were sacked because of our colour, and replaced by five Black Pakistan's.

THEN the stupid company wanted to re,employ us to.

TRAIN our replacement.

spacesailor

[SplitS]

There is zero evidence men and woman can work together. As an experiment we have been trying it for the last 50 years and it's not going so great. The worst work places are when you have a high ratio of females. Of course most work places now don't actually produce anything useful so it does not really matter.

 

A 2009 study published in the journal Gender in Management found, for example, that although women believe other women make good managers, “the female workers did not actually want to work for them.” The longer a woman had been in the workforce, the less likely she was to want a female boss.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/09/the-queen-bee-in-the-corner-office/534213/

[bexrbetter]

Most women I know reckon that the worst bullying comes from other women.

 

This is absolute fact.

 

Men grow up knowing when they cross the line, a smack in the mouth is a distinct possibility, many Women aren't aware of where that line is.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIOY2ezMy9A

[bexrbetter]

 

One Englishman ( me ) a Welshman, A Hungarian, A Polish man, and a WHITE Pakistan man.

 

 

... I'm still waiting for the joke ....

[planedriver]

"Vud, Vud, Vud" did you expect to hear Bex?

[kaz3g]

As a guide, the ATO provides a report for 2016-2017 stating average income for male lawyers is $143, 206 and for females is $106,475. I manage a firm with 11 staff And my salary is in line with the average for women. I have an Honours degree in Law, a Science degree, a post-grad diploma in legal practice and three other diplomas (real ones, not purchased). Women predominate in community legal centres as they do in social work roles because, as the Fair Work Commission found, we have A significant gender-based remuneration gap and men aren’t interested in applying in any numbers. We have two very good men, one is Aboriginal, and nine women.

 

My service provides duty lawyer services in the Specialist Family Violence Court List at Shepparton as well as general FV service at 5 outlying courts. Approximately 85% of matters have male respondents. FV is the largest area of police activity for VicPol now and serious incidents are investigated by detectives, not uniform.

 

if you refer to a rabid male advocacy group for your ”statistics” rather than the Royal Commission or the ABS, you will get the sort of “facts” they dish up. NOTE: 95% of victims of family violence experience it at the hands of a male perpetrator And women are far more likely to suffer serious injury. The figures are from 2012 and I can tell you from personal experience they are worse now.

 

Australian Bureau of Statistics Personal Safety Survey 2012

The Personal Safety Survey interviewed 17,050 men and women aged 18 years and over about their experience of violence since the age of 15. Further analysis of the data was conducted in 2015.

 

• One in four women (or 25%) in Australia (almost 2.2 million women) have experienced at least one incident of violence by a male intimate partner. This includes sexual and physical violence.
  
• One in 10 women in Australia (873,000 or 10%) have experienced sexual violence by a male intimate partner.
  
• One in 12 men in Australia (694,100 or 8%) have experienced violence by a female intimate partner. (Cox, 2015)
  

Victorian crime statistics

“Family incidents” are recorded by Victoria Police. They are defined as an incident attended by Victoria Police where a Risk Assessment and Risk

Management Report (also known as an L17 form) was completed.

For the year ending 31 March 2016:

 

• There were 76,529 family incidents, rising by 10% compared with the previous year.
  
• 75% of affected family members (victims) were female, while 25% were male.
  
• Women aged 20-44 years made up the majority of female victims. (Crime Statistics Agency, 2016)
  

Gender and family violence

In general, men and women experience violence differently.

 

• Around 95% of victims of all types of violence – whether women or men – experience violence from a male perpetrator (Diemer, 2015).
  
• A man is most likely to experience violence in a place of entertainment and a woman is most likely to experience violence in the home.
  
• Women are more likely to have experienced violence by a known person rather than a stranger. The reverse is true for men (Cox, 2015).
  
• Men’s violence against female partners is more likely to inflict severe injury and to result from attempts to control, coerce, intimidate and dominate than women’s violence against male partners which is more likely to be in self-defense when the male partner is violent. Female victims are also more likely to live in fear before, during and after separation from a violent partner while male victims are less likely to be afraid or intimidated (Bagshaw & Chung, 2000).
  

[M61A1]

I would take most Family LawCourt DV claims with a grain of salt. Been through that, along with many others. The data I provided took their numbers from the ABS.2016

Even Bettina Arndt Points out that the often quoted figures are massaged somewhat and provides references. DV is an industry and is often used for the wrong purposes.

I’m not suggesting that all the claims are false, but that the violence is a lot more even between the sexes than they would have you believe.

[walrus]

Kaz, these days I can’t even reply to your post without getting vilified or victimized.

[Riley]

There is zero evidence men and woman can work together. As an experiment we have been trying it for the last 50 years and it's not going so great. The worst work places are when you have a high ratio of females. Of course most work places now don't actually produce anything useful so it does not really matter.

 

A 2009 study published in the journal Gender in Management found, for example, that although women believe other women make good managers, “the female workers did not actually want to work for them.” The longer a woman had been in the workforce, the less likely she was to want a female boss.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/09/the-queen-bee-in-the-corner-office/534213/

 

Zero evidence???? What a statement of useless twaddle! Perhaps you would have us just eliminate females from the work force? You've been self-isolating too long!!! Riley

[Yenn]

Most of this now has nothing to do with airservices . I suggest it could be moved to Off Topic and we could get stuck in to it, but I am not following it up here.