Aircraft market today

[Flightrite]

"hundreds" in a population of 330 million. The thing is that the US has been very air-minded since 1919, and their State and Federal governments have supported and fostered aviation at all levels. In Australia, during the first 2/3rds of the Century, the Australian State and Federal governments strongly defended their monopolies on rail transport and maintained a an attitude of colonial subservience to Britain in relation to aircraft. Then the Federal Government brought in the "Two Airline" policy to stifle air transport in rural areas.

 

Australian aviation enthusiasts were buying magazines like Popular Mechanics and Flying Manual between the wars and using the plans in them to build small aircraft. But there was no governmental interest in developing an aviation industry until the outbreak of WWll. Unfortunately, before the ink was dried on surrender documents, the governmental support for aviation disappeared.

 

Well said. Our Govt (as useless as they are) are in power to support the masses,GA aviation enthusiasts are a very small 'mass' we simply don't matter!

[old man emu]

in power to support the masses,GA aviation enthusiasts are a very small 'mass'

 

Leaving out the "enthusiast" sector, what about the general population in rural areas? There has been little development of short-haul services between rural centres themselves.

[facthunter]

The Government were still subsidising flying training up to the 60's if you were the right age. (under 25). Even with the discount, you still only got about 2 hours flying in a Chippy for a weeks wages. In the early 60's they set up a group of Flying Scholarships for training to CPL +instructor rating OR CPL to AG rating IF you had about 100 hours up and passed the selection process AND agreed to offer yourself to the industry on completion. ALL that took about another 100 hours of training.. Nev

[Wirraway]

Jack was a pretty handy pilot as well. He flew up to Bundarra in the late 70's to look at an ultralight with the possibility of going into production and Jack being involved financially. He went for a fly in the machine, he hopped back into the 310 and was never seen again in those parts. He went up to see Gordon Bedson and the aircraft was the Resurgum. Gordon was killed when his 2 seat design lost a wing on a test flight.

 

 

RAA has mostly become a rich mans sport, the same as private flying in GA used to be, with aircraft costing upwards of 100K and training $300 an hour, Joe Ordinary on wages (wages have been reduced in real terms in the last 20 years or so) can't afford that. There seems to be a lot less and less Drifters/Thrusters/Phantom types flying now. Basic is best if you want a proper flying experience.

 

Many good comments here, but..

i was infected with the flying bug, about 1963, as a 5 year old at the opening of the Bunbury, W,A. airstrip in 1963.

Flying displays, and skydivers.

I can still see the parachutist who landed off the premises walking past me, in his white overalls, with bundles of canopy in his arms .

 

And the aircraft!!!!!!!!

and the aircraft.

 

So, I scratched the skydiving itch many yesrs ago, then discovered the AUF, In about 1990.

 

Quicksilvers were pretty flash back then, along with Thrusters, Drifters, and many more.

 

Along comes marriage, mortgages, many years later, 2018, start learning to fly RAAus style.

 

to buy an aircraft, yes there are Drifters, Thrusters and Quicksilvers still available, but if I am going to pay hangarage for one of those, why not buy a much more capable aircraft that will not cost any more to keep?

 

And That may be the answer to the question.

 

For those that want to fly “basic”, rag and tube types, I do not believe there is any impediment. But now, aircraft capable of 90+ knots are affordable to many. So why is there a problem?

 

yes, numbers of aircraft for sale are down, but there are still aircraft for sale at less than $15,000.

today a Skyfox came on the market and was sold within 12 hours. Good luck to The buyer.

 

Do I spend about $15,000 on a single seat Sapphire, a lot of fun I admit, or wait and spend $30,000 on a side by side 2 seater...

Edited June 11, 2020 by Wirraway

[Chrism]

As a dad of 4, 6 and 8 year olds, I can tell you that today's heros are someone on You Tube demonstrating how to play with a toy, animating lego construction or giving ponies a 'make over'. No longer do kids dream of becoming an astronaut, but a celebrity "You Tuber"![

[old man emu]

Is the need for speed and love of electronic toys killing the rag & bone, map & compass joy of flying?

 

You can cover a lot of country in a day at 80 kts, and getting there by using the Mk 1 Grey Matter chip eater is a great challenge.

[Wirraway]

Is it killing it???

Hard to say, but today there are options that weren’t available previously.

 

what do you own and/or fly, Old Man Emu?

[Student Pilot]

If the classifieds on this website are any indication there's not much for sale just now

[old man emu]

what do you own and/or fly, Old Man Emu?

 

I only undertake flights of fancy. If I had my d'ruthers I would have either a Gere Sport or a Pietenpol.

[KRviator]

A lot of it comes down to sheer cost, IMHO. I was somewhat lucky when I built my RV-9 in that the $$ was much higher than it is now. I have probably $130,000 in my RV, but to built 'like for like' today would probably cost you close to $170,000 and that is an awful lot of $$ for someone who is trying to pay off a mortgage, or even simply save a deposit. Even over a 10-year timeframe, that's $17,000 every year, or a mortgage payment for a smallish house. Then there's the ongoing costs. I'm up for $6,000 a year in fixed costs before I spin the prop. Add in $200/hour just in landing fees for circuit training at Warnervale or some other airports, why on earth would you pursue something so expensive for so little reward? Those that have newish RV's, or those composite wonders aren't going to put them up for sale unless they have to, because they'll lose far too much replacing them.

 

As much as I love the flying, CAsA (with their million-and-one rules and tacking on "this is an offence of strict liability" onto every piece of legislation), RAAus (the Privacy Policy disclosure debacle and the direction the organisation is going) DOTRS (ASIC, need I say more) and the various airport owners (who mandate an ASIC, 24/48H PPR, have 12'high razor wire, guard dogs, and a 10-person armed response unit to guard against a wayward RAAus pilot or weekend warrior dropping in just to have a look-see, or refuel, all backed up by an ARO with an attitude*) have taken an awful lot of the enjoyment out of it. If I could have my own property and self-insure a cheaper 4-seater, then perhaps I'd reconsider, but there will shortly be one more plane advertised on the classifieds....mine...

 

*May be a slight exaggeration

[Flightrite]

A lot of it comes down to sheer cost, IMHO. I was somewhat lucky when I built my RV-9 in that the $$ was much higher than it is now. I have probably $130,000 in my RV, but to built 'like for like' today would probably cost you close to $170,000 and that is an awful lot of $$ for someone who is trying to pay off a mortgage, or even simply save a deposit. Even over a 10-year timeframe, that's $17,000 every year, or a mortgage payment for a smallish house. Then there's the ongoing costs. I'm up for $6,000 a year in fixed costs before I spin the prop. Add in $200/hour just in landing fees for circuit training at Warnervale or some other airports, why on earth would you pursue something so expensive for so little reward? Those that have newish RV's, or those composite wonders aren't going to put them up for sale unless they have to, because they'll lose far too much replacing them.

 

As much as I love the flying, CAsA (with their million-and-one rules and tacking on "this is an offence of strict liability" onto every piece of legislation), RAAus (the Privacy Policy disclosure debacle and the direction the organisation is going) DOTRS (ASIC, need I say more) and the various airport owners (who mandate an ASIC, 24/48H PPR, have 12'high razor wire, guard dogs, and a 10-person armed response unit to guard against a wayward RAAus pilot or weekend warrior dropping in just to have a look-see, or refuel, all backed up by an ARO with an attitude*) have taken an awful lot of the enjoyment out of it. If I could have my own property and self-insure a cheaper 4-seater, then perhaps I'd reconsider, but there will shortly be one more plane advertised on the classifieds....mine...

 

 

*May be a slight exaggeration

 

Tragic but pretty much all true?

I go without a lot in order to keep my planes, never had a car over $10K in my life, built my own homes or reno'd them, second handed everything I could find. Worked 3 jobs for a long time when younger so I could get ahead early.

Flying is my only real joy, it costs a lot but they say we are dead an awfully long time!

[Jerry_Atrick]

We don't have the draconian security requirements of Aus, despite being far more susceptible to terrorism attacks, but the GA scene here, too has required some mettle to stay involved. We are losing airfields left, right and centre; the CAA is interpreting rules rather strictly, the level of bureacracy at airfields is on the increase, out airspace management is a joke (go to skydemonlight.co.uk and check out the airspace in SE England), ATC is fragmented, class D transits are fast becoming a thing of the past, etc. And then add EASA on top of it, many people either went LAA, which seems reasonably well run, or simply hung up their headsets.

 

But, I like to take a different approach and look at the positives - The CAA here have a strict liability rule, too. But they will only enforce the real bad or persistent breaches. I busted Heathrow's airspace back in Sep by about 400'. At the moment, the UK is taking airspace busts very seriously. The Farnborough West controller was right onto me, I immedately acknowledged and thanked him for telling me and entered a steep descent (after looking out). On landing, I gave Farnborough a call and again thanked them and let them know why (which was I was so focussed trying to get my call in on the overloaded frequency that I momentarily lapsed in concentration of where I was heading and went through a TMA step). They said they had to file a report by law, but given I was listening, responded and took action, it should make things easy for me. I never heard from the CAA. One of the columnists of a flying magazine described how he had a similar bust on the same day but was required to attend an online training session and test - he was not responding to calls from Luton, who he was speaking to in order to get a clearance. A Cessna pilot busted Luton to the overhead, orbited a bit, flew out of their zone, busted back into itand did the same before moving on. He claimed he thought he was at some mil airfiled miles away. Had his licence suspended for a year, I think. So, for me, despite the strict liability obligation, so far, it seems to be being applied rationally.

 

Our LAA has had its critics in the UK forums, but is generally seen to be a reasonable self-regulator and the CAA give them virtual complete autonomy. They don't seem to have the restriction RAAus pilots have with respect to controlled airspace and flying over populated areas (they don't have full FRTOL's but I think they have to pass a cut down version anyway)., suitably equipped planes (which I believe can include some GA types like C172s an Warriors) can legally be flown in IMC as long as a) the LAA has expressly approved that aircraft for IMC flight and b) the pilot has an IMC rating (or IR® as it is now known). Also, they can go to France, Germany, Spain, Italy and I think, Austria without the prior permission requirement (but they can't fly IMC there).

 

Despite the moaning, there is plenty to look forward to!

 

@KRviator - I don't know your personal circumstances, but assuming nothing untoward, you have a great plane; you live in a country with open skies that affords you some fantastic flying. And the club scene is virtually unrivaled, giving a great social dimension which is lacking in most countries. Unless you think you are at grave risk of breaching a rule, don't let the pollies and jobs-worths win and shut you down. Unf, my SWMBO pulled the plug and our return to Aus at the last moment.. OK, the bushfires and the rain put a damper on things for a bit, but while we have Europe, which is also spectacular, I would bite someone's arm off to be back flying in Aus.

[Bruce Tuncks]

There is a guy who used to work on an oilfield in Egypt. ( yes they have a small one ) and when I asked him about flying conditions there, he said that there was no way to fly privately there for the likes of him. He was a manager, not a roughneck.

So yes we are better off than most on the planet.

There was another guy who wrote a story for the gliding mag. He was going to India for a stint with his company, so he looked up the nearest gliding club and started correspondence about being able to join it and fly there. After 18 months and a file full, he still had no permissions and he gave up. Apparently the bureaucracy in India consists of the worst of England mixed up with the worst of local stuff.

[pmccarthy]

I have never sat in a Jabiru but a new J230 looks like best value for money on the Australian RAA market today. You can get flasher aeroplanes for more bucks, but it seems solid value in terms of airspeed and capacity.

[Hargraves]

When the empire /job builders are allowed to take over the interests of hobbyists the result is always going to be bigger more expensive costs and more regulations, this rule is specific to all sports and hobbies and if their was a viable alternative to RAA i,d be their yesterday

[skydog]

Back to less adverts for light aircraft I noticed a year ago how online sales of light aircraft especially less by the old traditional providers such as Aircraft trader and thru the flying orgs such as RaAus, SAAA etc was declining.

Online has gained a large piece of the action being easier cheaper faster and direct. ACFT Trader had to go online when they recognised this trend years ago. Facebook alone as 3 large sites.

Aviation Buy Sell Swap Australia is the largest. "Aircraft for sale" has 5000 members as an example. The various aircraft type groups such as RV`S in Oz , Vans aircraft Australia, are also a method of advertising your particular plane type directly to a target market. Australia GA aircraft Helicopters and parts is another.

search aviation sales in FB and lots of sites pop up.

[NT5224]

There is a guy who used to work on an oilfield in Egypt. ( yes they have a small one ) and when I asked him about flying conditions there, he said that there was no way to fly privately there for the likes of him. He was a manager, not a roughneck.

So yes we are better off than most on the planet.

There was another guy who wrote a story for the gliding mag. He was going to India for a stint with his company, so he looked up the nearest gliding club and started correspondence about being able to join it and fly there. After 18 months and a file full, he still had no permissions and he gave up. Apparently the bureaucracy in India consists of the worst of England mixed up with the worst of local stuff.

 

Flying overseas eh?

 

Over the years I've been based in seven different countries around the Middle East and Africa and for a private individual to fly (as opposed to a commercial or serving military pilot), its really tough to get clearance if you're on official duties. The closest i thought I was going to get was in Qatar, where there is a small private flying club mostly patronised by expatriates, but because of my status in the country, I just couldn't get the official approvals from local security.

 

Then a few years ago I was based out of Beirut, and noticed there was a local AOPA flying club mainly patronised by wealthy Lebanese business men. Not much flying seemed to happen, it was mainly lavish dinners where the elite gathered to show off their flashy expensive aircraft and even flashier and more expensive female companions. So I called up and told them I owned an aircraft in Australia and would love to go for a fly. Funnily enough, there were absolutely no questions asked, no local security clearances, nothing. So I organised to go for what was effectively a trial flight with an instructor in a battered 172, and flew.

 

Some context. Just offshore in the Med a US carrier strike force was launching their raids into Northern Syria. Across the other side of the Beqaa, the Russians were conducting their own combat operations, and the slither of airspace between the two was tiny. Lebanon is a small country! So I got to take the controls and fly around a bit (with the instructor keeping me out of trouble). It was wonderful with the snow-capped Mount Lebanon range rising from the shimmering blue waters of the Mediterranean. My primary concern was not of all the military operations and restricted areas around, but rather the complete absence of anywhere where a forced landing could be made. The Lebanese coastline is almost completely developed and overcrowded, and with the mountain slopes rising from the sea, if the engine on the ancient 172 died we were going swimming. Nevertheless, it was a memorable flight.

 

Alan

Edited June 17, 2020 by NT5224