Voice is not good enough

[graham brown]

Competency in English is just another basic competency that has to be mastered otherwise you should not have a licence. Even a student licence. I have found foreign students have issues as do visiting pilots. I have seen issues with 2 operators that did not prevent completely rote radio calls that did not correspond to what they were doing and where they were. I once heard a conversation with REX and a Chinese sounding student that resulted in REX going around twice. The REX pilot lost it....... The result was the guy said “ I go away”.

[old man emu]

You have missed the point about REPCONs. You are not dobbing yourself in if you report that in your opinion a misunderstood radio transmission had the potential to cause a safety issue. There's no way that you are saying that you were involved in a close call incident. What if you were approaching an airport and gave an inbound call, then monitored the calls associated with that airport but could not get a clear impression of what was happening in the circuit because the calls were unintelligible?

 

The reason REPCONs need your contact details is so that they can verify the report. If that wasn't there, there would be lots of malicious complaints that would waste investigators' time.

[Student Pilot]

I don't know how you can convince those of us who have had BAD experiences with CASA to start trusting them.

[spacesailor]

How can you say, "Anonymous," them demand all your information !.

XXX.X

spacesailor

[old man emu]

Is an anonymous report via REPCON acceptable?

REPCON does not accept anonymous reports. REPCON staff cannot contact an anonymous reporter to verify the report or to seek additional information. Further, REPCON staff must be satisfied that the reporter's motivation for reporting is aviation safety promotion, and that the reporter is not attempting to damage a rival or pursue an industrial agenda.

 

If you go through the results of investigations of matters reported through REPCON (link to reports) you will see that most deal with commercial operations. There are some that deal with overloaded communication matters at places like Byron Bay and Far North Queensland. None of these reports seem to come from the light end of aviation dealing with language problems.

 

The conclusion is that those in the light end of aviation either don't know about REPCON, or are reluctant to use it. You can't expect CASA to deal with a problem if it has not been advised of it. Also, from what has been said in this thread, the language problem seems universal. So, if people from all over the country start bombarding CASA with REPCONs dealing with the same problem, then a pattern will emerge and CASA will at least investigate.

 

The cynics and conspiracy believers can voice their opinions, but until there is proof that a person reporting was penalised by CASA, then I won't accept those opinions.

[kgwilson]

I imagine that filing a Repcon would require some specifics. When you are unable to provide the aircraft callsign or operator as you cannot understand the transmission that makes it more difficult.

[Old Koreelah]

I imagine that filing a Repcon would require some specifics. When you are unable to provide the aircraft callsign or operator as you cannot understand the transmission that makes it more difficult.

In those situations, we might refer to OzRunways, AvPlan, FlightTrack Radar, etc.

[Bruce Tuncks]

In NZ the CTAF calls do not end with the station identifier as per the UK but personally I think it is a good idea as often you miss or do not hear clearly the name at the beginning of the transmission. When i first flew here I kept on omitting it but after hearing others it quickly became habit.

When on the unicom 126.7, I often hear other traffic and rarely know where they are operating at. I like the idea of repeating the station and location at the end of the transmission.

[facthunter]

Don't shoot me . I'm only the Messenger. "Cynics and conspiracy "believers" opinions " (your choice of terms) might be Operators IN the Industry experiences. Get around and talk to them if you really want to know how things are done. They'd have to trust YOU first before they will let forth.

Just talking to A CASA rep at a pilot's night somewhere isn't getting to the guts of how the show works. I'm willing to almost guarantee IF you make a fuss of these radio issues YOU will be asked to have your radio and headphones checked and a hearing test done. THEY already are aware of the issues but it's political. These students pay money and expect results. No one fails. I pay money, therefore I get licence.

They've always been aware of the need to provide a SYSTEM of reporting people will trust. One I recall was called CAIR. (I think) THE first letter stands for "CONFIDENTIAL". If there's no risk , why the need then and now, for some assurance to get reports forthcoming? ..Whistleblowers have a rough time in this country these days if they expose inconvenient FACTS .Nev

[SSCBD]

Write a letter to the Minister and express those problems and why REPCON reporting is not viable to those who have concerns . He the minister will have to ask CASA what in hell is going on, I know he is only a figure head but he still can yell.

If a problem occurs it will look bad on him as he was warned. Just give a copy to the opposition.

[Flightrite]

Repcon is voluntary, optional just like opinions!

[Student Pilot]

Write a letter to the Minister and express those problems and why REPCON reporting is not viable to those who have concerns . He the minister will have to ask CASA what in hell is going on, I know he is only a figure head but he still can yell.

If a problem occurs it will look bad on him as he was warned. Just give a copy to the opposition.

Minister is Michael McCormack, good luck with that.

[APenNameAndThatA]

Or even

"Parkes traffic, Cessna 172, ABC, 10 miles east, 4000, Inbound, Parkes 15"?

 

"15" might be the runway. So, no.

[onetrack]

Doesn't this publication make radio procedures abundantly clear? Note the constant use of starting and ending with the specified location.

 

https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/default/files/radio-procedures-in-non-controlled-airspace.pdf

[facthunter]

Some key the PTT slightly late so the first "area" reference is omitted or indistinct. If you realise the call may be relevant to you, you get a chance to make a request to "say again" (with required callsign details). Nev

[old man emu]

"Cynics and conspiracy "believers" opinions " (your choice of terms) .

 

I was using those terms because I formed the opinion from posts here that some of us were in that group. Actually, if you read the whole sentence I was saying that until proof had been given that an informant had been penalised, Old man Emu would not accept those opinions.

 

If you really want to raise Hell, write to the Opposition Shadow Minister for Infrastructure and Transport; to your local member; to your local Council, and finally, to local and state media. Unless the wider community is made aware of safety issues that they don't meet on a daily basis, public opinion cannot be harnessed to improve issues.

 

Of course we believe that the training of foreign students is based on the income it produces, not the quality of pilot it produces. We know that certificates in many areas can be bought. Moderators here clear out ads for this type of business all the time.

[cscotthendry]

And it's not just forign pilots who can't do radio. There's a heli pilot that flies around the Watts Bridge area who doesn't know the difference between heading and bearing.

[facthunter]

I believe you. He's not alone either. IF you get the wrong info it's more dangerous than none as you look where you have been told He is. THAT should be obvious also.. Is it lack of training or WHAT? Nev

[old man emu]

First things first. Isn't the most serious problem the unintelligible pronunciation of persons who should have an ELP?

 

What is an aviation ELP assessment?

An aviation ELP assessment involves a candidate being tested on their ability to communicate in English in the aviation environment, where safety is paramount. The assessment involves two-way communications between the assessor and the candidate, and covers:

• pronunciation
  
• grammatical structures and sentence patterns
  
• vocabulary
  
• fluency
  
• comprehension
  
• interactions while communicating.
  

Who can conduct an aviation ELP assessment?

With minimal training, a person with an aviation ELP level 6 assessment can relatively easily assess another person as being expert or not. However, assessing a person as being at level 5 or below is much more difficult and requires expertise in linguistics.

 

A small number of specialists are approved to assess people at all levels. These assessors are approved under regulation 61.270 of the Civil Aviation Safety Regulations and are referred to as Specialist assessors in this information sheet.

 

What standard do I need to meet to pass an aviation ELP assessment?

The assessment standards are in the Part 61 MOS. There are six assessment levels for aviation ELP with level 6 (expert) being the highest. If you are assessed at level 1, 2 or 3, you cannot get a licence or use a radio. Level 4 and 5 assessments are acceptable for obtaining a licence and using radios, and expire after three and six years respectively. A level 6 assessment doesn’t expire.

 

[Flightrite]

Contacting and expecting a reply fromany minister or public official to air your concerns would be like having a chat with the garden gnomes at the bottom of your garden! Nothing will ever get done , it's Australia remember a third world country with a first world fascade!

[old man emu]

Be like a door-to-door salesman. If there is no answer at the first door, go on to the next one.

[Flightrite]

What do most people do to door to door salesmen? Slam the door in their faces!

[Jerry_Atrick]

@OME - I respect your throughts on this as you worked as a true public servant and probably understand the inner working of the machinery of government than most on these fora (I don't know anyone else who worked in the PS on here, except me.. but not enough to have real experience of the place).

 

But, where we have what is claimed to be a hostile regulator that regulates a very small segment of the population, it may be a case of be careful what you ask for. While the public servant arm of CASA may simply seek retribution, can you imagine what could happen when the pollies get involved? They will smell an opportunity - to win votes.. Sounds good, except that they are playing to an aviation (especially GA and recreational aviation) illiterate population. They will feed the main media (mainstream, social, etc) to push a barrow they may have.. .can you imagine it? Foeign pilots a danger to society - close city and large conrubation airports and send them to some dust bowl where they only people the can hurt are themselves...

 

Too far fetched? Look at ASIC.

 

Despite the howls of protestation from the aviation media and the representation made by various representative bodies, these only preach to the converted. Mr & Mrs Smith don't read them nor care.. they take wahtever media distribution to sppon feed them so they don't have to think. Both the incumbent minister and opposition will be looking for votes... do they really care about a tiny part of the population when they can sensationalise things and get the gullible population to fall for it.. .make it look like they have saved their lives yet again from some foreign and internal threat, etc etc. They wil lremind the population at election time to get the votes.

[aro]

First things first. Isn't the most serious problem the unintelligible pronunciation of persons who should have an ELP?

 

It's not as simple as that. My experience is that the hardest guy to understand on the radio was Irish. Scots would probably be hard to understand too. Chinese students are usually OK, except that like most students they sometimes make errors or are unsure of their calls. (Who hasn't been a student?) That problem is magnified because their schools tend to be very active, so there are a lot of students flying in the same area.

 

Having traveled to the USA a number of times in the last few years, I can tell you Americans often have a lot of trouble understanding Australians. Should we be prevented from flying there, if we are hard to understand?

 

Guys over 70 seem to be the main offenders when it comes to giving their life history over the radio. And instructors like to use it to organize their social life.

[old man emu]

they can sensationalise things and get the gullible population to fall for it..

 

Come the Revolution, Comrade, and the People will have the power!

 

Oh. That hasn't worked before, has it?