BRP who owns Rotax has just axed Evinrude ! Is Rotax next ?

[FlyBoy1960]

The parent company of Rotax, and the manufacturer of our aircraft engines has just decided to discontinue manufacture of Evinrude outboards.

 

Evinrude outboards have been around for more than 100 years and are a huge part of the BRP group who also owns Rotax. The customer base for outboard engines must be thousands of times more than our aircraft engines.

 

Does that mean with all of their latest cost-cutting that BRP will see the need to trim Rotax as well ? And in particular aircraft engines.

 

I sincerely hope not.

[Downunder]

The customer base for outboard engines must be thousands of times more than our aircraft engines

The customer base is larger but so is the competition for a piece of the pie.......

 

Unfortunately (and it is unfortunate!) no other light aircraft mfg comes anywhere near close to threatening Rotax's stranglehold on the market.

When Rotax want to make more money, they just crank the prices up and no-one even blinks....

[Thruster88]

The Evinrudes are 2-strokes albeit very good 2-stokes with direct injection E-tec and have excellent fuel economy. People want 4-strokes and that is the end of the story.

[facthunter]

They are selected in a free market competitive situation. but I don't see them as the be all and end all in the scene. A lot have tried and not made it BUT.... Nev

[Thruster88]

They are selected in a free market competitive situation. but I don't see them as the be all and end all in the scene. A lot have tried and not made it BUT.... Nev

How would you improve them?

[Thruster88]

The Evinrudes are 2-strokes albeit very good 2-stokes with direct injection E-tec and have excellent fuel economy. People want 4-strokes and that is the end of the story.

I think the aircraft engine are here to stay.

 

A Rotax 582 with E-tec would be a pretty sweet deal, perhaps with just a bit more displacement 80hp would be possible in a light compact package with good fuel efficiency and reliability.

 

https://www.ski-doo.com/ca/community/ontrack/E-TEC-Engine-Origins.html

[Flightrite]

If Rotax goes out of business then that's two items that have suddenly become scarce, Rotax engines and toilet paper, again!?

[facthunter]

How would I improve the Rotax? Design a new one from scratch. It's an old design now and the original 80HP was the best.. There's nothing special about their two strokes . They are Skidoo motors and I'd rate the 582 as "fair" and suitable for purpose(in the right hands).. Nev

[Mike Borgelt]

Via the latest issue of EAA Sport Aviation:

 

http://www.ac-aero.com

 

Series of interesting diesels.

 

Rotax have had their fair share of problems and they aren't cheap. There is also not a lot wrong with Lycomings. Take a look at the basic engine and you won't find much you can leave out. Put a modern dual redundant computer controlled ignition and electronic fuel injection on it and you have a modern engine. The laws of thermodydnamics have not changed. No radiators, hoses or gearbox.

[Flightrite]

Via the latest issue of EAA Sport Aviation:

 

http://www.ac-aero.com

 

Series of interesting diesels.

 

Rotax have had their fair share of problems and they aren't cheap. There is also not a lot wrong with Lycomings. Take a look at the basic engine and you won't find much you can leave out. Put a modern dual redundant computer controlled ignition and electronic fuel injection on it and you have a modern engine. The laws of thermodydnamics have not changed. No radiators, hoses or gearbox.

 

Have to agree. As much as plenty bag the old aero engines the Lyc especially are very reliable, 40 years of operating them I've never had an issue that's pit my life in jepardy?

[facthunter]

I'd leave it like it is with a drip injection and Gami injectors. The main problem is they sit around too much. The Continental 0-200 and some just before it aren't a problem if you have smaller stuff than most GA.. . Diesels must run on Jet A1 as ordinary diesel freezes at much below minus 3 degrees. Diesels have now been around for a long while and we keep waiting for the big breakthrough.

Maybe even with outrageous spares cost and initial price, Rotax aren't making a great profit? There's NO guarantee a hard nosed management won't axe the product, either. Nev

[Mike Borgelt]

I'd leave it like it is with a drip injection and Gami injectors. The main problem is they sit around too much. The Continental 0-200 and some just before it aren't a problem if you have smaller stuff than most GA.. . Diesels must run on Jet A1 as ordinary diesel freezes at much below minus 3 degrees. Diesels have now been around for a long while and we keep waiting for the big breakthrough.

Maybe even with outrageous spares cost and initial price, Rotax aren't making a great profit? There's NO guarantee a hard nosed management won't axe the product, either. Nev

 

You clearly didn't read the link I gave. These things claim to run on just about anything including petrol.

[Mike Borgelt]

Designed to run on industry standard Jet fuel (Diesel (EN 590), Jet A, Jet A-1, JP-5, DEF STAN 91-86, JP-8, DEF STAN 91-91, JP-8+100, Chinese Jet Fuel No 3)

 

 

Will also run and perform on all gasolines where necessary, 80,87,91,95 including 100LL along with all bio derivitives.

 

 

Hydrogen gas.

[kasper]

Probably runs on thoughts and prayers as well...

 

The 67kg 115hp engine on the link is effectively vapourware until it actually is a real engine in a plane and available for delivery at an advertised price.

 

A nice set of rendered pics of a design on a $50 website is not a real thing

[marshallarts]

Probably runs on thoughts and prayers as well...

 

The 67kg 115hp engine on the link is effectively vapourware until it actually is a real engine in a plane and available for delivery at an advertised price.

 

A nice set of rendered pics of a design on a $50 website is not a real thing

 

Agree completely. Anyone can build a snazzy-looking website in about 10 minutes.

[Downunder]

I do think it's a great idea, having liquid cooled, all aluminium cylinder/heads on a Lycoming block.

Combined with something like SDS injection, would be awsome!

http://www.ac-aero.com/gladiator/

 

When a couple of planes have done 2000 hrs......... come back and see me ? l

[facthunter]

I only commented on the relatively high temp at which normal diesel won't flow. Unless you only fly at lower levels and in the tropics that's a safety concern for anyone thinking of using diesel. I also like to NOT use float carburetters and IF I must, I like them well under the motor and away from the exhaust.. When there's plenty of AIR to cool a motor why complicate it? The smaller Lyc's often have NO oil cooler and therefore no external hoses. You need cowl gills for radiators OR for aircooled to get it right.. IF you drop chutists or tug gliders maybe an alloy chev V8 is for you ? Nev

[Thruster88]

This is not a dream, available now and in production from lycoming. Used in Tecnams new big twin.

 

iE2 Integrated Electronic Engine

[skippydiesel]

I only commented on the relatively high temp at which normal diesel won't flow. Unless you only fly at lower levels and in the tropics that's a safety concern for anyone thinking of using diesel. .....................................................u ? Nev

 

Nev-I My understanding is there is no "normal diesel" Diesel is routinely formulated for the season/altitude/market (even in Au).

 

Cant comment on the chemistry but back in the erly 1980's, I spent a couple of winters in Canada, temperatures down to - 45 Centigrade (still air). Diesel engines worked just fine - using their "normal" annual "winterised" fuel. Also think it was normal for diesel systems to have fuel heaters.

 

Also every doco on the Poles shows diesel powered tractors hauling huge sleds probably running on "winterised" diesel.

 

In short, diesel has its cold environment problems but they can be managed.

[facthunter]

Of course there's a "normal" diesel and in some areas in WINTER there's an'alpine" diesel available that most people never use or know about unless they live there. The winter diesel may cause injector failure in some systems. as it's got less lubricant properties.. I and my family have experience operating in Alpine areas and it's cost my son a fortune in repairs as he works frequently at high altitudes (Hotham.). I've corresponded with Shell and they said just add kero. Expensive and probably needs a lubricant additive as well and not really that convenient... I've had to spray all fuel lines and the pump with hot water to get off the mountain at all at times. Canadians are used to these conditions and have the right equipment and Polar ops the same. In a practical sense I reckon that rules out Diesel for most of our planes as I said except for the tropics at low levels. .Jets have very effective and large fuel heaters. and need them even with avtur.. Avtur may be OK on it's own .I only referred to DIESEL you get at the pump. I'm not sure I would run avtur in all diesel engines without advice . It's evil smelling and dangerous as a solvent bath. and would be illegal to use in a road vehicle as excise is not paid..Nev

[IBob]

When there's plenty of AIR to cool a motor why complicate it?

Three good reasons I can think of:

1. Much reduced finning (the Rotax still has it on the barrels) so the whole engine is more compact and light.

2. Far less input required from the pilot to maintain engine temperatures correctly.

3. Far simpler for the builder to arrive at a functional installation in his aircraft of choice (much less messing around trying to get even and adequate cooling).

[facthunter]

Fins designed properly are part of the strength and they are not heavier nor is there a water pump and drive required. Disagree strongly with #2. You still need to regulate temp Best done with shutters (gills) for either. #3 you have to fit an extra. a radiator, which is often not easy and hoses (messy and a risk) and hard to get airflow right ... You DO need liquid cooling when the engine has over say 50 bhp/litre of engine size or a four valve head.. Nev

[IBob]

Facthunter I think you missed part of the point:

I wasn't suggesting fins were heavy. What I was saying was that with liquid cooled heads (and less fin there) the cylinders can then be moved closer together...so the crankshaft gets shorter, as does the crankcase.....

As for #2 , regulating cooling, I don't think there's much of that goes on, apart from blanking off part of the oil radiator during the winter months.

Yes, there's an extra radiator, coolant hoses and pump. However, getting the airflow right through a radiator has to be a whole lot easier than getting it right round 4 cylinders and heads......

[facthunter]

Most aircooled barrells and heads are pretty close together. Water jacket size wouldn't be greatly different from the fin depth but the fins add to head stiffness.. Baffles are all you need to direct the cooling properly with a sealed plenum on top., Usually there's only just enough crankcase length to have the mains pins and webs on the crank a reasonable size.. The older motors are larger displacement so end up a bit more bulky but are invariably direct drive for the lower HP versions. For Fuel efficiency they are not much different..

[Thruster88]

Facthunter I think you missed part of the point:

I wasn't suggesting fins were heavy. What I was saying was that with liquid cooled heads (and less fin there) the cylinders can then be moved closer together...so the crankshaft gets shorter, as does the crankcase.....

 

 

I personally would not like any of the meat to be removed from my crankshaft just so the cylinders can be placed closer together but each to their own, lycoming crank shown, gasp! Only three mains, what were they thinking