Pakistan A320 Crash - 1 in 3 Pakistani Pilots do not have a licence

[kgwilson]

After reading this I would never even think of flying with any airline from the middle east or subcontinent except European managed companies Etihad & Emirates.

 

A third of Pakistani pilots has a FAKE flying license, it is revealed

[Flightrite]

.......and this is news? It's well known in the industry but as usual nothing gets done until the horse has bolted! Anyone flying heavy metal long enough would already know such things, I've seen it first hand!

[Bruce Tuncks]

I had no idea... wow

[Jabiru7252]

I work with quite a few from who come from India and Pakistan. Some of them say that the corruption is so bad back home that they are terrified of flying in their home lands. Much the same in many African countries apparently. I have also heard the medical profession has similar problems.

[M61A1]

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again...You are risking you life when you fly with any of these third word airlines.

[jackc]

I flew from Johannesburg to Cairo on Egypt Air 10 years ago, the old 737 from memory was like a rickety old bus and just as clean. Near kissed the ground when I got off it

[onetrack]

The missus and I flew from Sabiha Gokcen to Cairo in 2013 on Egypt Air. The aircraft was 3 hrs late and the driver drove it like it was a Greek taxi. Seatbelt use was apparently optional for most pax of local descent.

Thought we were glad to hit the ground in one piece in Cairo, but the fun then started, when we landed on dusk at Ramadan, and we missed our connecting flight with Qatar to Doha.

 

I didn't do my homework on Cairo Airport terminals, and didn't realise there were three terminals up to three kms apart. The shuttle bus wouldn't stop to pick us up - but then, when one did, the driver promptly pulled into the bus depot after a km, shut the bus off, and went home, because he hadn't eaten all day!

 

Then a taxi driver with the greatest POS of a taxi I've ever ridden in, charged us US$20 to take us a bit over a kilometre to the terminal where Qatar left from.

Spending a night stuck in the Cairo airport, with no help from anyone, and all airport offices closed while everyone went home to eat and sleep, wasn't an experience we would want to endure again.

 

Airport Security was non-existent and people wandered back and forth through the "Secure" and "Non-secure"areas, like sheep in a paddock.

Then a bloke was wheeled in on a makeshift trolley, suffering numerous wounds from local factional fighting, bandaged and bleeding, and moaning and groaning.

He was wheeled off through some distant doors to some waiting aircraft somewhere, obviously to get decent treatment for his wounds.

 

The Qatar office didn't open again until 3:30AM - then Middle Easterners waving "baksheesh" in large rolls of notes, got served first, over Westerners.

Finally, when we did get served, it was pay another $325 Eygptian Pounds (each) for a ticket re-issue, because we missed the flight. So, we thought we were set, when we got our 1st class tickets issued again, and we took the lift to the VIP lounge.

 

But the VIP lounge was merely an open-to the-air rooftop setting! - complete with hordes of flies! Made us feel like we were 4WD camping in the Outback of Australia!

Add in the waiters who brought the prepared food in for the bain maries - and then placed the full food trays on the floor, while they removed the old trays from the bain marie!

 

Cairo (and Egypt) is well down my list of places to revisit, and I reckon Pakistan is probably well behind Cairo.

[jackc]

The missus and I flew from Sabiha Gokcen to Cairo in 2013 on Egypt Air. The aircraft was 3 hrs late and the driver drove it like it was a Greek taxi. Seatbelt use was apparently optional for most pax of local descent.

Thought we were glad to hit the ground in one piece in Cairo, but the fun then started, when we landed on dusk at Ramadan, and we missed our connecting flight with Qatar to Doha.

 

I didn't do my homework on Cairo Airport terminals, and didn't realise there were three terminals up to three kms apart. The shuttle bus wouldn't stop to pick us up - but then, when one did, the driver promptly pulled into the bus depot after a km, shut the bus off, and went home, because he hadn't eaten all day!

 

Then a taxi driver with the greatest POS of a taxi I've ever ridden in, charged us US$20 to take us a bit over a kilometre to the terminal where Qatar left from.

Spending a night stuck in the Cairo airport, with no help from anyone, and all airport offices closed while everyone went home to eat and sleep, wasn't an experience we would want to endure again.

 

Airport Security was non-existent and people wandered back and forth through the "Secure" and "Non-secure"areas, like sheep in a paddock.

Then a bloke was wheeled in on a makeshift trolley, suffering numerous wounds from local factional fighting, bandaged and bleeding, and moaning and groaning.

He was wheeled off through some distant doors to some waiting aircraft somewhere, obviously to get decent treatment for his wounds.

 

The Qatar office didn't open again until 3:30AM - then Middle Easterners waving "baksheesh" in large rolls of notes, got served first, over Westerners.

Finally, when we did get served, it was pay another $325 Eygptian Pounds (each) for a ticket re-issue, because we missed the flight. So, we thought we were set, when we got our 1st class tickets issued again, and we took the lift to the VIP lounge.

 

But the VIP lounge was merely an open-to the-air rooftop setting! - complete with hordes of flies! Made us feel like we were 4WD camping in the Outback of Australia!

Add in the waiters who brought the prepared food in for the bain maries - and then placed the full food trays on the floor, while they removed the old trays from the bain marie!

 

Cairo (and Egypt) is well down my list of places to revisit, and I reckon Pakistan is probably well behind Cairo.

 

Soon learnt to carry plenty of small denomination notes for bribes everywhere, money was filthy dirty, wonder I did not catch Cholera off it. NEVER going back!

[kgwilson]

It is amazing that there aren't more crashes in this part of the world. I took a flight from Jammu to Srinagar in The Kashmir back in 1973 in the most beat up Fokker Friendship I'd ever seen. The airline I think was called Indian Airlines a local mob & it was filthy, just like the 3rd class train carriages. There were passengers with chooks and a goat on board. There were cockroaches 2 inches long scampering around the floor.The turboprop engines were black with soot so they were probably running them on waste cooking oil or something. I remember being able to only just make out the Rolls Royce badge on the engine. Obviously I arrived safely but never took another local airline in Asia after that. There was an outfit in Indonesia called Merpati and they were even worse. I went everywhere there by Bus.

[Flightrite]

Plenty of shonky operators out there! Asia, the Pacific Islands etc years ago where corrupt as! I had to carry around $US10K ( Green backs talks all languages!) in a brief case to bribe everybody from the refuelers & their many cousins, the ATC guys, the handling agents even a guy who operates the Rwy lights at some Island dromes!

[Jerry_Atrick]

I have been to the middle east once for work - to a country that is considered quite western in its approach and lifestyle. Never, ever going back (voluntarily). A complete cesspit of depravity, opression and hypocrisy. People are deminstrating in the streets against slavery but if you look beyind the thin veneer of civility, in this country, slavery is alive and well. When work tried to send me again, I resigned. They retracted the requirement for me to go; I retracted my resignation.

 

I have only seen the pyramids and the wailing wall from a postcard (well, on the 'net now).. I won't miss not seeing them in real life.

 

Back to aviation, with the same company I worked in the Czech Republic a lot. There was no way, back in the late 90s I was going to take an Eastern European airlines flight regardless of the fact they had started flying Boeings. However, their flight times were more convenient and I was talked into taking them once.. I was flying with a colleague who was quite a bit heavier than me (I was once svelt). When we got to our seats, the row in front were bolted not parallel but to a decent angle to us where the ailse seat was so much close than the window seat, she had to give up her preferred ailse seat to me. My immediate thoughts were a) how the hell did they do that as I would have expected their would be fixing points for the seats; and b) if they aren't providing enough care on what we can see, what are they not doing right for what we can't see.

 

Anyway, coming in to land, I could see we were too fast and the descent rate was too high... thinking they would go around, the bone compressing landing was followed by some serious braking that resulted in underseat life jackets coming out and induced a noticable skid on dry day! I have never flown that airline since.

Edited June 26, 2020 by Jerry_Atrick

[derekliston]

Similar experiences to all of the above, East African Airways VC10 from London to Nairobi in 1973 and Air India from Sydney to London in 1988. Two airlines on the never, ever again list!

[facthunter]

People still buy on price alone. CHEAPEST fares and they line up to get them (metaphorically). What's your life worth? . What's the failure rate when they train in Australia? Rich sponsor brings diplomatic pressure on and you get your ticket. Nev.

[Old Koreelah]

We in the rich west have been lucky to have a choice. If Qantas flies that route, it'll be my preference.

It's not politically correct, but some cultures seem to produce more good pilots than others.

Several foreign airlines employ lots of pilots from Oz, Canada, Britain, etc. and enjoy good safety reputations.

 

It intrigues me that Indonesia, which has a huge population and a fairly well developed training sector, employs young, inexperienced western pilots in some of its most extreme territory.

[facthunter]

You are talking about one particular area , I think. A lot are from the UK. TRAINING is the issue rather than race, but culture comes into the accident rate as well.

Junior pilots are loathe to point out errors when the left seat Guy is a 'Famous" Airforce pilot or a senior Company type. THEY are some of the worst operators. Nev

[old man emu]

I had to carry around $US10K ( Green backs talks all languages!) in a brief case to bribe everybody

 

Is it corrupt, or is it Captialism gone feral? We are lucky in Australia to have had instigated controls on prices, at least for transactions between members of the class that doesn't control capital. In the countries you mention, it's dog eat dog with no controls. You want something done, you'll pay the doer's price or go without. What we are not used to is the Poor, or I should say, Unrich, using the same tactics as the Rich. If you control the "asset", you set the price.

 

I'm glad that we have a wage setting system in Australia, so that you can go into a cafe and be served by a person who does not have to rely in "tips" in order to end up with a decent income at the end of the week.

 

Coffee Shop Positions Sorted By Salary

[TABLE]

[TR]

[TD valign=top]

Position

[/TD][TD valign=top]

Average Starting Wage

[/TD][TD valign=top]

Entry-Level

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD valign=top]

Cashier

[/TD][TD valign=top]

$7.25 – $9.00 per hour

[/TD][TD valign=top]

Yes

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD valign=top]

Barista

[/TD][TD valign=top]

$7.25 – $9.00 per hour

[/TD][TD valign=top]

Yes

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD valign=top]

Baker

[/TD][TD valign=top]

$7.25 – $9.00 per hour

[/TD][TD valign=top]

Yes

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD valign=top]

Assistant Manager

[/TD][TD valign=top]

$12.00 – $14.00 per hour

[/TD][TD valign=top]

No

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD valign=top]

General Manager

[/TD][TD valign=top]

$14.00 – $16.00 per hour

[/TD][TD valign=top]

No

[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

 

The average wage for all workers in the USA from May 2019 to January 2020 was between $US 10.92 to $10.98. Covid has raised that to $US11.74, but that is a high point and the rate is coming down. That's $AU 16.00 last year, and $AU17.00 now. The Basic Wage in Australia is $19.84. The Australian average hourly rate is $44.

[kgwilson]

Juan Brownes analysis of the crash is summed up as "The worst case of human factors failings that he's seen in Commercial Aviation history".

 

[facthunter]

So many things you wouldn't believe could be allowed to happen, all in one event . Situational, awareness totally absent throughout. There's NO logical explanation for it. They never were totally in control at any time and were miles behind it to the end. Nev

[Thruster88]

The CVR shows the pilots were having a discussion about corona virus. Sterile cockpit, who needs that?

[Flightrite]

Whilst it's general std SOP's for a sterile cockpit below 10K' I never observed it once in all the years I drove multi crew ABV 10K'! We humans can't help ourselves!?

[Flightrite]

I was watching Jaun's excellent comments almost cringing! I've got 1000's of hrs driving the 320 bus and just don't get how thess guys even got a drivers ticket! A kid on a Flt sim could do far better!

Edited June 27, 2020 by Flightrite

[jackc]

I was watching Jaun's excellent comments almost cringing! I've got 1000's of hrs driving the 320 bus and just don't get how thess guys even got a drivers ticket! A kid on a Flt sim could do far better!

 

Control yoke attendants......

[Flightrite]

Control yoke attendants......

 

More like stick fiddlers! Unfathomable what transpired!

[marshallarts]

The incompetence is quite breathtaking. I wouldn't let those guys ride my bike!

[Mike Borgelt]

I couldn't care less whether someone has a licence or not as long as he/she is a competent pilot. Same for driving where presumably most actually have valid licences but you can't tell from the way they drive. Much of the apparatus of the almighty State is just theater.

 

Have a think - would your personal aviation operation change much if all aviation regulation except "rules of the air" was abolished? It would certainly be cheaper.