So have any of you Mexicans (Victorians)– smile people - made it across the border by air.

[octave]

'm looking forward to seeing the numbers reduce, then what?

 

Then as a country we join with NZ in a travel bubble, this was on the cards but understandably NZ is hanging off on that. NZ is looking at a travel bubble with south pacific nations because they have a low infection rate. Perhaps extending that to Asian nations such as Japan. A gradual build up pf tourism from countries that have done well. Countries that have not managed to reduce infections will be shunned. This will help to begin the rebuild of the economy. Whilst this is happening there will be still some outbreaks but they will be easier to control. Meanwhile perhaps one of the many vaccine trials will be successful. Perhaps retrovirals will improve things. HIVAIDS has no vaccine but is now rarely fatal.

 

That is what I see as being the way forward, what do you say as the correct way forward?

[M61A1]

Things are currently being adjusted to Police can put more through the Court system so within a few hours/days it will be up to $20,000.00 for individuals and I think $100,000 for companies.

Do you honestly believe that the sort of people breaking curfew/other rules are actually going to pay those fines?

[turboplanner]

Things are currently being adjusted to Police can put more through the Court system so within a few hours/days it will be up to $20,000.00 for individuals and I think $100,000 for companies.

Interesting you would use a HaHa emoji M because the HaHas are exactly who DHHS and the Police are targetting for things like 300 of the 800 people ordered into self-isolation after testing positive being away from their homes multiple times.

[M61A1]

Interesting you would use a HaHa emoji M because the HaHas are exactly who DHHS and the Police are targetting for things like 300 of the 800 people ordered into self-isolation after testing positive being away from their homes multiple times.

I think it's absolutely hilarious that you think that this will change anything. Fining these people will achieve nothing except wasting police time and effort.

If they really want these sort of people to self isolate, they will need to physically lock them up.

 

It's hilarious because Victoria and in particular Melbourne pride themselves in being ultra woke and diverse and in doing so, have created most of their own problems.

 

On the other hand, it scares the hell out of me, not because I'm worried about covid, but because as it leaks out of Victoria, other states may try the same approaches as Dan.

You keep telling us Dan isn't in charge, so don't blame him. He put these people in charge and he can have them stand down, so he is in charge. That's why it's his face on the telly every bloody ten minutes.

 

I am more concerned about our response to the disease than the disease itself.

 

Previous generations have made much bigger sacrifices for the public good with much less whinging about it. Those who think it is all unnecessary will just have to accept that until the numbers reduce we are stuck with this, the way out is to address the problem.

Previous generations were fighting possible invasion by a capable enemy that was more than happy to enslave or kill everyone, today we are fighting a virus that might kill a small percentage of older people who generally speaking, didn't bother to look after their own health, and now wan't to call others "selfish" if they don't give up everything they've worked for. Yes it occasionally gets someone younger, but these are outliers.

Future generations will look back at our response to to covid and and think WTF?

[Flightrite]

I think it's absolutely hilarious that you think that this will change anything. Fining these people will achieve nothing except wasting police time and effort.

If they really want these sort of people to self isolate, they will need to physically lock them up.

 

It's hilarious because Victoria and in particular Melbourne pride themselves in being ultra woke and diverse and in doing so, have created most of their own problems.

 

On the other hand, it scares the hell out of me, not because I'm worried about covid, but because as it leaks out of Victoria, other states may try the same approaches as Dan.

You keep telling us Dan isn't in charge, so don't blame him. He put these people in charge and he can have them stand down, so he is in charge. That's why it's his face on the telly every bloody ten minutes.

 

I am more concerned about our response to the disease than the disease itself.

 

 

Previous generations were fighting possible invasion by a capable enemy that was more than happy to enslave or kill everyone, today we are fighting a virus that might kill a small percentage of older people who generally speaking, didn't bother to look after their own health, and now wan't to call others "selfish" if they don't give up everything they've worked for. Yes it occasionally gets someone younger, but these are outliers.

Future generations will look back at our response to to covid and and think WTF?

 

 

 

M61A1 forget it you won't convince some, the current batch of Kool aid is very strong!?

We will just sit back and wait, wait for Dan's amazing next round of draconian laws!

Edited August 4, 2020 by Flightrite

[octave]

fighting a virus that might kill a small percentage of older people who generally speaking, didn't bother to look after their own health

 

You might want do little fact checking on that. A large number of people infected are in fact health workers who despite the risk continue to look after people. The death rate is not the only relevant concern. As of yesterday there were 456 people in hospital in Victoria 38 of them in ICU, this is with the restrictions that you find so objectionable. We know how many people became infected by one man who travelled from Vic to NSW and went to the pub, extrapolate those numbers to a no restriction scenario and then think about what those hospital numbers would be. Whilst you may consider older people as being dispensable and perhaps younger people who maybe being treated for cancer the question is what would we do with the huge number of people who require hospital care? Send them home to look after themselves?

[octave]

M61A1 could you explain what you found funny about my post #377? I am more than happy to have a fact based debate but you offered no rational criticism of the points I made. Also no one has really presented their alternate method of handling the situation.

[M61A1]

You might want do little fact checking on that. A large number of people infected are in fact health workers who despite the risk continue to look after people. The death rate is not the only relevant concern. As of yesterday there were 456 people in hospital in Victoria 38 of them in ICU, this is with the restrictions that you find so objectionable. We know how many people became infected by one man who travelled from Vic to NSW and went to the pub, extrapolate those numbers to a no restriction scenario and then think about what those hospital numbers would be. Whilst you may consider older people as being dispensable and perhaps younger people who maybe being treated for cancer the question is what would we do with the huge number of people who require hospital care? Send them home to look after themselves?

That's exactly the point.....Many people are infected...very few die. Of the older that die, most would have died in the next 12 months and most of those will have preventable health conditions that were a result of their own lifestyle.

We are destroying the lives and livelihoods of many for a few that weren't interested in taking care of themselves to start with.

Even with the many cases in Melbourne, hospitals are far from overrun.

 

Flightrite is correct. Though, your mind is made up, your facts address different points and some are a matter of viewpoint.

Sure NZ is doing well by your standards, but If they dare open the borders they will very quickly have what we have in Melbourne. So, either we are going to have to learn to live with it, or we will just have to keep locking down until we are a third world country and hope an effective vaccine is found before we get there.

 

Melbourne has shown just how difficult it is to keep people isolated, so unless they are forcibly quarantined (which goes against Melbourne's Woke culture), you have virtually zero hope of containing this, especially since some of the people there will see it as a personal challenge, and some will want to keep it going because of the cash benefits with the very low risk of dying. The laws will only affect honest people.

[M61A1]

Also no one has really presented their alternate method of handling the situation.

Many people have provided alternative methods but you discard them immediately, because they come from from "ultra right wing" sources or "non-medical experts" or some other excuse. Your mind is made up.

[facthunter]

What country has done it well, M61, So we could copy it? Many who "survive" have permanent damage and the medical workers can be overwhelmed and then what.?. Clearly many in Victoria have not done the right thing. It's a very infectious virus, and that is very evident.. Normal medical appointments are put on hold. Medical workers are the real heroes here and world wide. Nev

[octave]

M61A allowing the virus to spread pretty much unchecked would produce a huge number of people of ALL AGES who may not die but still require hospital care. What do with do with them all? Your characterization of older people who die form covid as being close to death anyway from not looking after themselves is rather absurd. There would some people on this forum who have type 1 diabetes, expendable I guess. There are others here who may be being treated for cancer, expendable?

 

Your right I do reject alternate methods that are proposed from ultra right wing or non medical experts. When I learnt to fly I took my advice from a flying instructor not a hairdresser. Likewise I would not employ a flying instructor to cut my hair.

 

The economy is being harmed but what people forget is that a disease running rampant is also going to massively damage the economy. The cruise ships are not tied up at the docks due to restrictions, the fact is no one wants to go on a cruise while this disease is still spreading rapidly.

 

The economy is inextricably linked to the progress of the virus. the countries that put in the most effort and are self disciplined will be the countries that emerge economically strongest.

 

From The NT Times

 

But beneath the headline figures, Europe flashed promising signs of strength.

Germany saw a drop in the numbers of unemployed, surveys found evidence of growing confidence amid an expansion in factory production, while the euro continued to strengthen against the dollar as investment flowed into European markets — signs of improving sentiment.

 

• 
  

 

These contrasting fortunes underscored a central truth of a pandemic that has killed more than 670,000 people worldwide: The most significant cause of the economic pain is the virus itself. Governments that have more adeptly controlled its spread have commanded greater confidence from their citizens and investors, putting their economies in better position to recuperate from the worst global downturn since the Great Depression.

“There is no economic recovery without a controlled health situation,” said Ángel Talavera, lead eurozone economist at Oxford Economics in London. “It’s not a choice between the two.”

 

Despite Historic Plunge, Europe’s Economy Flashes Signs of Recovery

[M61A1]

What country has done it well, M61, So we could copy it? Many who "survive" have permanent damage and the medical workers can be overwhelmed and then what.?. Clearly many in Victoria have not done the right thing. It's a very infectious virus, and that is very evident.. Normal medical appointments are put on hold. Medical workers are the real heroes here and world wide. Nev

What country has done well will still be a matter of opinion, those with a left wing leaning think NZ is a model, there are many different things tried by many different countries. Many have ended up with similar results, but over different timeframes. Sooner or later NZ will have to open up, and I would think that it's quite likely that they will see similar things to Melbourne (and other countries) when they do.

Yes, it is very infectious, but it's not particularly deadly.

Yes, Nev the medicos are heroes, what good are entertainers and baristas now?

M61A allowing the virus to spread pretty much unchecked

Why the idea that you can only have two states...completely unchecked or completely eradicated? There is middle ground.

Below is a link to a BBC article, who are by most standards a leftist paragon, but are still more intellectually honest than our ABC.

Perhaps it might clarify things a little. We are clearly looking at this from different viewpoints and as such find different outcomes acceptable.

I do not support the "safety at all costs" culture, and my expectation is different to yours.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-51979654

[turboplanner]

The Age is reporting an estimate of a record 725 cases today.

 

Previous days have been 30/7 723 627, 354, 671, 439, and today 725.

That still could be the wave of Aged Care Facilities, Meatworks, disobedience, but a scary number. CHO and another Uni Virologist have said we should see a drop by aound 10/8.

[facthunter]

It does always to some extent, reflect what happened a few days ago or even a week. "Something" has to be very wrong to get these results . Facts help work that out. Nev

[KRviator]

Previous generations have made much bigger sacrifices for the public good with much less whinging about it. Those who think it is all unnecessary will just have to accept that until the numbers reduce we are stuck with this, the way out is to address the problem.

However, previous generations were fighting a visible enemy. They also had old-age pensions to look forward too, they didn't have to self-fund their own retirement with superannuation - which you don't get paid if you have lost your job!. Oh, they also didn't have the Government telling them "If you've lost your job, you can raid your retirement savings to tide you through". They also benefited from house prices the likes of which we will never see again, with average house prices being only 3-4x the annual income (Source), they didn't have to save for 8 years just to achieve a deposit for a loan, yet alone the loan itself (Source). They also, typically, were able to enjoy a "job for life" if they so chose, casualisation was barely heard of and they didn't need to commute 3 hours a day from the house they could afford to their workplace, they didn't have the cost-of-living outstripping wage growth year on year, and they didn't have the Medicare Levy surchrage or PHI levies....

 

Yep, those previous generations have made so many sacrifices! And now they're asking the follow-on generations to make even more sacrifices to protect them. A quick number crunch suggests if you withdraw $20,000 from your superannuation at an early age (in your early-mid 20's), it will cost you in excess of $360,000 when you retire. That's based on a 7.5% compounded year-on-year return, which my super fund easily achieved on several options....

 

You might want do little fact checking on that. A large number of people infected are in fact health workers who despite the risk continue to look after people. The death rate is not the only relevant concern. As of yesterday there were 456 people in hospital in Victoria 38 of them in ICU, this is with the restrictions that you find so objectionable.

456 hospitalised, of which 38 are in ICU out of 6489 currently active cases. 0.6% of cases need ICU. According to The Age, Victoria has 695 ICU beds, but "with the capacity to rapidly increase that if required" according to the Health Minister. To fill those beds would require a daily case increase between 960-1880 for 10 days straight, yet even nationwide we didn't achieve that lower figure. So to completely fill their nominal-capacity ICU beds with Covid patients would need ~116,000 currently active cases. But this would, presumably, exclude those beds from other patients, injuries, etc.

 

We haven't even got close to that as a nation! But speaking of the nation's response to Covid, where's Mark McGowan or Anastasia Pala-howeveryouspellhersurname coming out and saying "We can help support our interstate citizens and shoulder our share of the health load by accepting some patients in our hospitals!" Or are we not 'all in this together'? Let's not forget the reason why NSW and Victoria have so many cases is because the vast majority of International Arrivals came through Melbourne & Sydney.

 

We know how many people became infected by one man who travelled from Vic to NSW and went to the pub, extrapolate those numbers to a no restriction scenario and then think about what those hospital numbers would be.

I think they would be manageable. Just because you have it doesn't mean you will need hospitalisation, yet alone an ICU bed. People elsewhere (NSW & Qld) have shown the infection rate can be kept under control.

 

Whilst you may consider older people as being dispensable and perhaps younger people who maybe being treated for cancer the question is what would we do with the huge number of people who require hospital care? Send them home to look after themselves?

I'm reminded of that old TV show "Dinosaurs" and their Hurling Day episode...

[octave]

What country has done well will still be a matter of opinion, those with a left wing leaning think NZ is a model, there are many different things tried by many different countries. Many have ended up with similar results, but over different timeframes. Sooner or later NZ will have to open up, and I would think that it's quite likely that they will see similar things to Melbourne (and other countries) when they do.

Yes, it is very infectious, but it's not particularly deadly.

Yes, Nev the medicos are heroes, what good are entertainers and baristas now?

 

Why the idea that you can only have two states...completely unchecked or completely eradicated? There is middle ground.

Below is a link to a BBC article, who are by most standards a leftist paragon, but are still more intellectually honest than our ABC.

Perhaps it might clarify things a little. We are clearly looking at this from different viewpoints and as such find different outcomes acceptable.

I do not support the "safety at all costs" culture, and my expectation is different to yours.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-51979654

 

I note that this article was written in mid april. We have much better data now regarding excess deaths. I am more than happy to link to the latest information if you wish. People push this idea that it is only the extremely old or people with preexisting conditions who are threatened by this. The idea seems to be that everyone who has a preexisting condition is only weeks away from death anyway. I wonder how many forum members are a few kilos over weight or have high blood pressure these conditions amongst many others do not mean you are about to drop dead.

 

A large portion of our foreign earnings comes from tourism and students from overseas. Even if we opened the borders to these people would they come and spend money here if it is not seen as a safe place?

 

Yes NZ will have to open it's borders but this will not be an open slather approach but it will start with the countries that pose the least threat. It is not clear from the scientific evidence that herd immunity is a viable strategy. It appears that the immunity created by getting the virus does not last very long especially if you only get a mild case. I am reasonably confident that a vaccine of some level (perhaps providing a lower chance of getting it) combined with better treatments such as retrovirals ect will mean that we will be able to get on with life with some sort of normality knowing with some social distancing, hand washing and better treatments the odds will be much better than at the beginning. The death rate has already been lowered with drugs like Remdesivir etc.

 

I am acutely aware of the situation in NZ as my son lives there. After their short but harsh lockdown he now can sail his yacht with friends, compete in motorsport, got to his favourite pub and have friends over for BBQs. This sounds pretty good to me. Time will tell which countries will emerge economically the soonest and in the best condition. We should revisit this in a years time and see which countries have been the most successful.

[M61A1]

Time will tell which countries will emerge economically the soonest and in the best condition. We should revisit this in a years time and see which countries have been the most successful.

Absolutely...even then the measure of success will depend on who's yardstick is used.

A large portion of our foreign earnings comes from tourism and students from overseas. Even if we opened the borders to these people would they come and spend money here if it is not seen as a safe place?

And yet, the biggest risk is letting them in....

[octave]

To fill those beds would require a daily case increase between 960-1880 for 10 days straight,

 

We have already reach over 700 in a day last week and this is with restrictions. remove those restrictions and the numbers can easily exceed those numbers. This is the nature of exponential growth. The number of ICU beds we have not only has to cope with covid patients but the background level of the usual accidents, strokes, heart attacks etc.

 

 

People elsewhere (NSW & Qld) have shown the infection rate can be kept under control.

 

Yes that is true, but they did this with pretty much the same measures we imposed here. The difference is we dropped the ball with quarantine guards. We now need to regain ground.

[Flightrite]

KRviator ref my post #381 You are wasting your time with those convinced we are doomed!!

[octave]

KRviator ref my post #381 You are wasting your time with those convinced we are doomed!!

 

I am actually an optimist. I believe we will overcome this but not without effort. If you carefully read my posts you will notice that I am optimistic about recent vaccine trials and also treatments such as remdesivir etc. I am also not convinced that we are economically doomed either. I can actually be convinced of anything given rigorous evidence. There is quite a large uncertainty factor, we don't know how the virus will mutate, it good be for the better or for the worse.

[turboplanner]

A man in his 30s has just died from CV in Melbourne.

[M61A1]

A man in his 30s has just died from CV in Melbourne.

And what other conditions did he have? Without that information your statement is pointless, and just scaremongering.

[Ironpot]

Wow ... I didn't realise that Coronavirus was a matter of Left or Right wing politics!!

 

I'm in Q and have friends of all persuasions - I haven't met even one that is unhappy with our Premier's response to date. In fact, I know plenty of rusted-on Conservative voters who wish her to lock the NSW border down again right now.

 

Don't worry, I empathise, as I'm desperate to fly into WA and have applied and been rejected twice. It's working for them (and by extension the rest of Australia) so their policy is obviously a good one, supported by the vast majority of their citizens - I just don't understand why you would wish to say its a matter of Left/Right - just so bloody unnecessary!

[Flightrite]

It's tragic that someone has died at that age BUT if he was healthy then we are ALL in serious trouble! Fear & hysteria some thrive on!

[KRviator]

A man in his 30s has just died from CV in Melbourne.

The man, who is the youngest Australian to die from the virus so far during the pandemic, was being treated at Maroondah Hospital in Melbourne's eastern suburbs.Victoria Premier Daniel Andrews declined to provide any further details such as the possibility of the man having underlying health conditions, saying that information and his identity will be up to his family to reveal if they want to.Source

So here is another perfect example of the fear-mongering of the politicians.

 

A 30 YEAR OLD VICTORIAN HAS DIED!

 

But I won't tell you if he had bronchial pneumonia, silicosis or anything that would have contributed to his death should he catch Covid, that's up to his family to release - it's secret squirrel stuff. Oh, and by the way, his family don't have access to a daily press conference, a dedicated media unit or an official Victorian Government Facebook account to get that info out there anyway...But A 30 YEAR OLD VICTORIAN HAS DIED!

 

Phuck me.