Reaction Time

[Old Koreelah]

... your eyes/brain recognises the needle position as its actually just a position, like a familiar picture...

Yonks ago, when I was designing my panel, there was a discussion about this and a recommendation that we adopt an idea from rally drivers, who have even more need to keep their eyes outside:

Turn each dial so that when everything is husky-dory, all the needles are parallel, pointing up.

[M61A1]

You sure about this? My reaction time on the bike slowed enough for me to give it up.

Currency?

This might explain why so many elderly drivers accelerate their car in reverse onto the footpath.

Or kill someone at a shopping centre by crushing them against a wall.

[turboplanner]

I would suggest that's the case only if you maintain currency. Don't know what the studies say about that, but I regularly see elderly drivers around here that have extremely poor reaction times. I suspect the only time they are behind the wheel is once a week to is to doddle on down to the shop.

I used to ride 6 to 7 days a week and could pick the deterioration after not riding for a week. Now I ride maybe once a month and the deterioration does not feel so obvious. Doesn't mean it's not there, just less obvious, which would make it more dangerous.

My friend bought an aircraft off someone who had done maybe 60 hours in 14 years. My friend and I fly several times a week and scared to hell out of the owner during a test flight by approaching a stall at a reasonable altitude.

I think currency is important, but you have to current at the right thing.

I doubt that increasing BFR requirements for example would help at all, but would likely exacerbate the issue and make it even longer between flights.

 

Edit: tried your test...consistently below 0.25 sec. not sure if clicking a mouse translates to real world though.

This is just a test to get reaction time for a very simple task - see something > do something. the interesting thing is you can practice and practice but that will be about your reaction time.

Your reaction time is about what I'd expect from a current pilot.

 

Control actuation and modulation are separate subjects, and where currency, old age and bad habits come in.

BFR is a waste of time except for regulation tests; real time auditing is much better.

[Old Koreelah]

Currency?

I'd been doing a lot of riding when I noticed my slowing reaction time. The racetrack wasn't a problem because you learn it like a routine. There are few surprises because the club discourages dangerous passes. It's on the road where reaction time is really a matter of life or death; the big roo that jumps out, the car that suddenly turns in front of you.

 

Or kill someone at a shopping centre by crushing them against a wall.

We haven't yet had one of those, but we've attended several others over the years.

One lady reversed her car over the gutter, across the footpath, thru a garden fence and demolished part of a verandah. One reason our VRA trucks carry acrow props.

Edited July 17, 2020 by Old Koreelah

[Geoff_H]

I am old. Waiting for my medical episode while driving. Bought a car that automatically applied brakes for pedestrians, walls etc, other cars inline of sight and if my face becomes unresponsive. I figure that I may not create a serious "problem" and be able to continue driving. With a licence continue flying...... maybe not.

[turboplanner]

You sure about this? My reaction time on the bike slowed enough for me to give it up.

Try the reaction time test, however you may still have made a wise decision if your modulation was going off.

 

This might explain why so many elderly drivers accelerate their car in reverse onto the footpath.

From my own experience, allowing bad habits to develop was the cause.

I came into a Bunnings car park one day and as I went to brake in the slot the engine revs picked up. Being an analytical sort of person and figuring the throttle had jammed wide open I absolutely stood on the brake, yanked the park brake and then thought about turning the engine off. I restarted the engine with the transmission in neutral and the engine started normally and dropped to idle so I got out onto an open road as quickly as possible and was very alert for the next few days but the problem didn't happen again. A few weeks later I'd forgotten about it and the same thing happened again, but this time I'd looked down and noticed my foot half way off the brake pedal and pushing the accelerator pedal. I was mortified, but caught myself carelessly using the brake pedal again, so focused on placing my fit squarely on the pedal for a couple of weks and that was the end of that habit. Have never drifted back into it in years.

[turboplanner]

Yonks ago, when I was designing my panel, there was a discussion about this and a recommendation that we adopt an idea from rally drivers, who have even more need to keep their eyes outside:

Turn each dial so that when everything is husky-dory, all the needles are parallel, pointing up.

In speedway there's even less time to react; we're doing a quarter mile of four turns and four straights in 11 - 13 seconds in heavy traffic.

I started out with a full instrument cluster and after 8 years just had a tacho sticking out of the RH side of the car with the needle pointing vertically at 10500 rpm, so I could get a glimpse at the very start of turn 1 IF I was thinking about the gearing, otherwise it was all head up. (so pretty much what Fachunter was saying)

[kgwilson]

It's dials and needles for me. I don't care whether they are mechanical or a digital LCD display so long as they are clear and uncluttered. All my steam gauges are duplicated by the Dynon with its ribbon and digital character displays. The only one I look at regularly is the magnetic track ribbon across the top as it is easier to see than the compass which has the sky behind it so often the detail is hard to see. I do use the dynon for A/H & turn & bank but then I don't have alternatives for this.

 

I look out the window 95% of the time. Yesterday I was cruising at 2200 feet and spotted 2 black dots that became Wedgetail Eagles within a second or 2 & I went past with one about 50 feet at 10 oclock & the other about 50 feet at 4 oclock. I was close enought to see their eyes. Both dived away & I manoeuvred in between. Now if I was a dial dick I wonder what would have happened.

[Old Koreelah]

Try the reaction time test, however you may still have made a wise decision if your modulation was going off.

Wilco.

 

... this time I'd looked down and noticed my foot half way off the brake pedal and pushing the accelerator pedal...

Easily done. Unfortunately there are many drivers on the road who will never do such a self-diagnosis...and some of the younger ones are less likely to.

 

Last year my grand daughter did an impressive job of driving my car for the first time after watching me demonstrate a couple of laps with a big light showing her what my feet were doing.

 

I found my new pair of workboots are dangerous to drive in, because there's no feel for where your feet are and their wide soles easily catch on the adjacent pedal; not just when driving, but also when getting out.

I take them off after dragging my plane out and wear a pair of elastic-sided slip-ons for flying. I want to be able to get my feet out of them fast if those boots get tangled up in a prang.

[facthunter]

Reflex's are tested by tapping your knees. That is not a conscious action same as dropping something hot. You should have had it at medicals.

Reaction time is probably LESS important with flying than it is on a motorbike or high performance car but in a critical situation like a limit X wind landing it may affect coordination. Coordination must require reactions be fast because that's what a coordinated movement is. If you are over controlling I would see that as a possible slow reaction thing. Another test Do you catch a screwdriver as it rolls off the bench before it lands on you foot?.. Are you consistently slow to get away at the lights? IF you are on a highspeed bend on your bike, can you pick a lean angle and radius that is fairly constant. Judgement comes in here as well but so does quick and small reactions to factors presented to you Can you do a U turn on the bike on near full lock. feet up? Can you use the front brake firmly without locking it in a quick stop.? Nev

[onetrack]

Then there's the accuracy in lane-following ability, when driving, as well. Testers of aged drivers say they look for the ability to follow lane markings precisely.

There is a marked tendency to "wobble" between lane markings when drivers abilities are declining with age.

Then of course, there's the young girls who are all over the road, because they can't concentrate on their driving, due to the fact they're checking their hair in the mirror, their facial makeup, their phone.........

[kgwilson]

And the young blokes who are staring at the young girls on the footpath or on bikes.

[onetrack]

Guilty as charged, yer 'onour. I can recall nearly rear-ending another car as a young bloke, thanks to a very shapely lass on the footpath!

[Geoff_H]

Then there's the accuracy in lane-following ability, when driving, as well. Testers of aged drivers say they look for the ability to follow lane markings precisely.

There is a marked tendency to "wobble" between lane markings when drivers abilities are declining with age.

Then of course, there's the young girls who are all over the road, because they can't concentrate on their driving, due to the fact they're checking their hair in the mirror, their facial makeup, their phone.........

I will be ok in the test ? Turn on lane assistant and let the car steer itself. Just have to tap the steering wheel every few seconds. It can be scary, cars follow the centre during turns, drivers tend to go towards the inner side of the corner. First few times you think the car is not steering correctly.

[facthunter]

Every time you go through the city, ask yourself... How would I go if that was a driving test? Be honest. IF it's not good, stop doing it. There's enough bad drivers there already. Nev

[Flightrite]

There will always be bad drivers on the road in the air as its human nature to flout the laws! My daughter hates my driving, nearly 50 years, never owned a new car and never been booked!? I fail to see why I need to pay our grubby Govt extra $$$?

[onetrack]

The greatest problem I see every day is the "familiarity breeds contempt" attitude and the gradual relaxation of strict personal discipline.

And let's face it, being in control of a machine of any type involves discipline in operation and in following strict procedures and protocols and rules and regulations.

When you start to become lax about all those, is when you start to become a danger to yourself and others.

 

In driving, Stop signs are a classic. Watch the average Stop sign and see how many drivers actually come to a full stop and carefully look both ways? Unless they sight a copper, I'll wager it's about 10% of drivers.

From initially stopping at Stop signs and looking both ways, the driving skills then relax to just rolling through the Stop sign and taking a casual look in both directions.

 

Then after 40 years of driving, it becomes, drive through the Stop sign at 15kmh and taking a cursory look in both directions.

Then you see people driving straight through Stop signs without even looking, because they're really familiar with that Stop sign and they were distracted from their driving by something else taking priority in their mind.

 

The number of drivers wiped out by trains on uncontrolled level crossings in country areas is substantial - because they've "never seen a train on that line"!

[Flightrite]

1track your last paragraph brought back ugly memories from many years ago, the Kerang train crash with a semi at a crossing, 11 dead, plenty injured a& the driving got off! I was involved in the rescue, I'll never forget that day or the court verdict!

[Geoff_H]

Many years ago I read a report from a retiring six crash investigator. He said:

95% of accidents involving death the pilot was doing something illegal at the time of the accident

1% was bad pilot training

1% was bad maintenance

1% was pilot medical episode

1% was something I can not remember, old age memory.

1% was bloody bad luck

So I used this as my philosophy, fly legal, it is legal for a reason. Seen me safe for 40 years of flying. Still have a class2 med. Reaction time is still in the .3 seconds. If this goes I will retire from flying.

[poteroo]

In cases like an EFATO where we need to have the nose going down as the engine is dying these things are concerning.

 

AFAIK, the reaction time to loss-of-noise is very dependant on how much 'in practice' the pilot is. A student pilot expects to have the engine power reduced when they are doing 'circuits', just as a BFR candidate expects to have a 'loss-of-power' event on one of their circuits. So, as an instructor, I feel that these tests are not a valid indication of the pilots' response when they are flying solo, or with a passenger where they are likely to be far more relaxed. Being 'relaxed' is likely to result in a slower reaction to an emergency event.

 

I have read, ( I think it may have been in Barry Schiffs book #3), that EFATO reaction time might be as much as 5 secs. Doesn't leave much time, or altitude, or airspeed, to work with if you fall into the 4-5 secs group! Pilots react with a range of responses, with many suffering a sense of shock, disbelief, confusion too - before reacting. This is shortened by recurrent training, and by an honest immediate pre-takeoff safety 'brief' to ones' self, thus getting some 'adrenaline pumping'.

 

The faster that a pilot recognises an emergency happening, the more smoothly and capably they can react. An instructor can introduce say, a 2 second pause in allowing the pilot to begin with either adopting a glide or any 'vital' action : which then demonstrates just how much the situation will deteriorate in the space of 2 seconds. Has to be done safely and sensibly of course.

 

From the EFATO, an instructor can introduce a 'pause' into other emergency events such as a go-round. Again, a situation which can be frighteningly sudden, and is particularly dangerous if you are at the end of a long, (3-4 hrs), flight, where your reaction times have been scientifically measured as slower.

 

happy days,

 

If we continue to train pilots by pre-empting an 'emergency', then pilots are not learning just how greatly their reaction time is affected by shock.

[M61A1]

In driving, Stop signs are a classic. Watch the average Stop sign and see how many drivers actually come to a full stop and carefully look both ways? Unless they sight a copper, I'll wager it's about 10% of drivers.

From initially stopping at Stop signs and looking both ways, the driving skills then relax to just rolling through the Stop sign and taking a casual look in both directions.

Things might be better if stop signs were only used in places where needed. I've only ever seen one stop sin in my lifetime that made any sense, and many of them actually make the intersection more dangerous. I always make sure I stop because I really don't want the fine, but usually I have already checked whether or not the intersection is clear before I get to the stop sign.

The top of the Toowoomba range is probably the worst one because you have clear line of sight in both directions, but are required to stop and start on an uphill gradient. By the time you've stopped and got moving, especially with a load, you're doing well to get across before the traffic is on you. Without a stop sign it would be very easy to use your momentum to clear the intersection with less danger. On the same train line a few kilometres apart are two crossings, one has a "give way to trains" sign, and I know someone was killed there when they drove into the side of a train, the other has a stop sign,. No consistency.

Many people also seem more focused on the action of stopping (and counting to three for some stupid reason) than they are actually checking that the intersection is clear.

I have been down at the local transport office for regos and such, and I have to say I've been horrified at some of the written test results of other potential drivers in the office at the same time. Some of which have had a licence previously, but needed to retest. Even worse, I have witnessed that our local cops don't understand right of way and such while in marked cars.

I know someone who works in emergency services and always drives around under the speed limit because "Iv'e seen what happens if you go too fast", but thinks it's a laugh when they get stuck behind a cop car driving drunk to the bottle-o because they've run out of beer.

Do I get angry when I drive? Oh Yeah, because the level of competence accepted in QLD is a joke. Some rules get heavily enforced and really important ones get ignored, people die then they enforce the same old stuff with the same result.

Just a few weeks ago a woman was killed on the Warrego, because she pulled out straight in front of a B-double. That poor bugger is probably going though hell from that, but on the bright side it wasn't some guy on a bike who probably would died instead.

 

Bugger....Now I'm cranky again

[facthunter]

I didn''t see HIM is a weak excuse. It's usually because you don't look. Like the Garuda 707? who not only didn't hold clear but crossed the runway at the western threshold of 06 at Sydney when I was on late final. About 60 ft vertical separation as I went round. Must have been a premonition as I said to the crew near Bindook. "This BLOKE is going to get in OUR way somehow" and I was sort of ready for it when it happened.. Nev

[M61A1]

I didn''t see HIM is a weak excuse. It's usually because you don't look. Like the Garuda 707? who not only didn't hold clear but crossed the runway at the western threshold of 06 at Sydney when I was on late final. About 60 ft vertical separation as I went round. Must have been a premonition as I said to the crew near Bindook. "This BLOKE is going to get in OUR way somehow" and I was sort of ready for it when it happened.. Nev

There are often little clues as to what's going to unfold.... If you're observant.

[facthunter]

Probably true. He didn't seem to be on the ball with ATC on the way in, but nothing you could actually PIN anything on. Nev

[turboplanner]

If we continue to train pilots by pre-empting an 'emergency', then pilots are not learning just how greatly their reaction time is affected by shock.

Where an Instructor starts a sessions with "Today we're going to practice some EFATOs" you're primed and ready for as many as it takes and you're paying hourly rate for no benefit.

It HAS to be unexpected (and the instructor has to be ready for a fail.

The three or four seconds you talked about is recognised in a lot of industries as a failure to react subconsciously.

The Reaction Time the study talks about, and I was talking about was reaction time to a subconscious response. Once you cross that point and start to think "Is the engine really stopping?" etc. you not only go into the 2 - 3 second response, but I've actually taken several seconds to get my act together pikcing the wrong response a couple of times into the bargain. I don't think I would ever do that with an EFATO because I was lucky enough to have an Instructor who explained "The instant the engine slows, nose down, trim to 70 kts, THEN follow the other checks" and proceeded to pull the throttle back from above the strip all the way out to the training area, and the nose down became a subconscious action.

Reacting subconciously usually occurs before shock, with shock hitting as the enormity of what's about to happen sinks in. I think in most cases, such as an engine failure from altitude, the check list keeps you busy, but I know from racing that at times you can react well, and at other times fear is the top emotion.