question Factory V Kit

[skippydiesel]

Just wondering what value the "brains trust" put on factory built aircraft - compared with the same unit, kit built ?

 

So this is a question about perceived value, ability to train & hire - it is not about build quality etc etc

[Blueadventures]

I theses days price in $30k labour and $70k kit, engine and bits / panel items. So perhaps 30 to 35% in general is the labour saving of a $100 to 110k factory kit.

[facthunter]

Generally the market would favour the "assurance" of a factory built against the uncertainty of the owner built one in my experience but that is just what it is.. I can't speak for others..Nev

[Bruce Tuncks]

Is there actually a risk that the kit-built has a structural failure resulting from building mistakes? Has it ever happened for real? In Australia, there has always been some serious independent inspections before you can start flying.

[APenNameAndThatA]

Is there actually a risk that the kit-built has a structural failure resulting from building mistakes? Has it ever happened for real? In Australia, there has always been some serious independent inspections before you can start flying.

I have no personal expertise, but these pages have told of many horror stories of home built planes.

[old man emu]

So this is a question about perceived value, ability to train & hire - it is not about build quality

 

Refer to the RAA rules about the hiring out of owner-built aircraft. I might be wrong, but I don't think that you can.

 

I think that you are permitted to train in an aircraft that you built yourself, but you need to find an instructor who is experienced in flying the particular design. Apart from that, I think that most instructors want your training dollar spent using their aircraft.

[KRviator]

Having built my own RV, I would personally take a well-built example of <Kit XYZ> by a homebuilder over a factory built one, but you do need to know what to look for to work out if it is a well built example.

 

But as above, you cant put it online if that's something you would consider later.

[Jerry_Atrick]

I also don't have experience of kit building (maybe one day), but I do know someone who purchases kit builds and despite the LAA (equiv. to the RAAus) inspecting at different points of the build and of course the annual permit to fly inspection, he has seen some death traps. Having said that, I have seen death traps of current airworthy GA aircraft, so neither is a guarantee. In my case, I would have an independent inspection of either unles I was that confident in my own technical assessement as even from a few hundred feet, if the thing falls apart, it is going to be a very bumpy landing.

[skippydiesel]

Just wondering what value the "brains trust" put on factory built aircraft - compared with the same unit, kit built ?

 

So this is a question about perceived value, ability to train & hire - it is not about build quality etc etc

 

 

I must have articulated my question badly - I am fully aware of the potential for quality control shortcomings of kit built aircraft (and for that matter some factory builds).

 

This is not actually my question, which is about the aircraft market place. VALUE in this context is about dollars/annual depreciation/ engine hrs, TBO/ etc. I am interested in the hypothetical: two identical aircraft, one factory built, the other a kit and the relative value Forum participants might put on each.

 

Although the question is hypothetical, this is a real world problem, for all who might be contemplating the purchase of a preloved aircraft.

[Jerry_Atrick]

Sorry - was the way I worded my response (first time i saw the thread and after reading the OP, I read all the responses and was taken off track).

 

The point is, over here, there is a perception of higher probability of lower quality in homebuilds than factory builds. I have no idea if it results in a lower value (though my guess is, it would as lower quality usually equals lover perceived value), but over here, factory build is used as a strong selling point..

[Kyle Communications]

I have seen a few factory builts and I have to say that some of them are not what I would call good enough at all.

They dont deburr edges and holes etc for a start

[KRviator]

Have a look at the build quality of the "factory built" Sierra that hit the ferris wheel at Old Bar! There's another photo in the Preliminary Report showing brake lines going straight through a drilled hole in the fuselage skin, no grommet, no chafe protection. WTF?!?

 

width=492pxhttps://www.atsb.gov.au/media/3525322/ao2011126_fig2.jpg[/img]

 

 

Edge distance? Never heard of 'im!

width=489pxhttps://www.atsb.gov.au/media/3525335/ao2011126_fig4.jpg[/img]

 

 

Power line cable-tied to the fuel filter, as you do. No attempt to remove the razor-edges of the zip ties, either!

width=487pxhttps://www.atsb.gov.au/media/3525317/ao2011126_fig1.jpg[/img]

Photos courtesy of the ATSB

[Blueadventures]

I must have articulated my question badly - I am fully aware of the potential for quality control shortcomings of kit built aircraft (and for that matter some factory builds).

 

This is not actually my question, which is about the aircraft market place. VALUE in this context is about dollars/annual depreciation/ engine hrs, TBO/ etc. I am interested in the hypothetical: two identical aircraft, one factory built, the other a kit and the relative value Forum participants might put on each.

 

Although the question is hypothetical, this is a real world problem, for all who might be contemplating the purchase of a preloved aircraft.

You did because kit built cannot be used for hire or training in a school.

[Bruce Tuncks]

An advantage of the amateur builder is that he is not pressed for time in the same way as the factory is.

Once I asked where the 600 hour build time figure for a Jabiru was worked out. I found that in the factory they allow 300 hours for the same thing, so they doubled the figure for us home builders.

[skippydiesel]

You did because kit built cannot be used for hire or training in a school.

The point as I see it is: Does the market (you lot) value the ability to hire out an aircraft, for financial gain, over the same aircraft you are not permitted to so offer ? If so by how much? $1-20K or perhaps a % + 5-50%?

[kgwilson]

I've seen some pretty shoddy workmanship on factory built aircraft and even worse on amateur built. Most look fine superficially and much of the bad stuff is only discovered when pulling things apart. I built mine & I was fussy. I have over 1000 photos of the build and a full cross referenced build log. I'd buy an amateur built aircraft if I could check out all the build photos & log & I'd want to check for all the mistakes that have been fixed. I took 1000 hours to build my aircraft and that didn't include all the time I spent setting up or cleaning up or working out how I was going to do certain bits.

 

I don't have and have never had any desire to hire my aircraft out even if I was allowed to. No-one has ever flown it but me & that will remain the case unless I decide to sell it. It cost 70K to build ex labour & is probably worth 40-60K 5 years down the track.

[Jerry_Atrick]

Have a look at the build quality of the "factory built" Sierra that hit the ferris wheel at Old Bar! There's another photo in the Preliminary Report showing brake lines going straight through a drilled hole in the fuselage skin, no grommet, no chafe protection. WTF?!?

 

<snip>

 

I did say perception - not reality... As Bruce mentioned, home builder have more time... However, I have noticed many ads that are at pains to stipulate factory build and the price doesn't seem to be cheaper... Mind you, I am surem the LAA drivers who build their own aircraft are normally a discerning bunch...

 

[Edit] It is worrying about the quality of factory built anyway.. The TB20 was laid up in the workshop so long for its paint because of the manufacture issues found by the shop... It really was not one where quality control was front and centre... Maybe it was made after a French lunch on a Friday afternoon?

[kgwilson]

That was always the joke. Never buy a car made on a Friday, always buy a Monday car. Now of course it doesn't matter as robots put everything together with perfect precision & they don't need lunch or get tired. That is not the case with aircraft manufacure though due to the small volumes. Many may have CNC parts machined, drilled and cut out but they are put together by humans who can forget things and make mistakes.