CO poisoning ??

[skippydiesel]

Had an "interesting" experience at the weekend:

Went up for a trial flight in an aircraft (no names no pack-drill) that I was very keen to purchase.

As we taxied out, I smelt exhaust fumes, my demonstrator made no comment . We backtracked and stopped to do our run ups - I started to feel nauseated.

I asked my PIC did he smell exhaust fumes? - "Yes" he said, always when this aircraft was taxing, "sometimes the CO patch would turn black", but it would all clear shortly after take-off.

Off we went. I couldn't tell you if the smell abated, as I continued to think it remained (possibly psychosomatic).

My nausea certainly continued, now accompanied by a dull headache.

Needless to say - I did not enjoy the flight.

On landing (still feeling quit unwell) I asked the owner about the exhaust fumes - O yes! but it clears up, on getting airborne.

It took well over two hours for the headache & nausea to leave me.

No, I did not purchase the aircraft.

[Kenlsa]

As we have had an accident due to CO, maybe you should make a report of your observations. This is exactly the type of report that is needed/required by the authorities. Don't walk past; as that is the standard you accept. Ken

[Flightrite]

Had an "interesting" experience at the weekend:

Went up for a trial flight in an aircraft (no names no pack-drill) that I was very keen to purchase.

As we taxied out, I smelt exhaust fumes, my demonstrator made no comment . We backtracked and stopped to do our run ups - I started to feel nauseated.

I asked my PIC did he smell exhaust fumes? - "Yes" he said, always when this aircraft was taxing, "sometimes the CO patch would turn black", but it would all clear shortly after take-off.

Off we went. I couldn't tell you if the smell abated, as I continued to think it remained (possibly psychosomatic).

My nausea certainly continued, now accompanied by a dull headache.

Needless to say - I did not enjoy the flight.

On landing (still feeling quit unwell) I asked the owner about the exhaust fumes - O yes! but it clears up, on getting airborne.

It took well over two hours for the headache & nausea to leave me.

No, I did not purchase the aircraft.

 

Out of interest Skippy what type was it?

[skippydiesel]

Out of interest Skippy what type was it?

You put me in a difficult position with this question.

 

I am of the opinion that the owner has little aircraft maintenance/knowledge in general. Is unaware of that there is any issue and his maintenance provider would seem to be of similar opinion.

 

The aircraft in question is a fairly uncommon (not so many in Au) beast and may, due to its design, have a tendency to get exhaust fumes in the cockpit during gear down phases of operation.

 

My quick investigation (since the Saturday incident) suggests that the problem "may" be fixable, in large part, even completely, by making a series of fairly minor modifications - however this advise was given in such a way (bit uncertain/vague) so that I decided not to purchase.

 

The aircraft is generally in good condition but needs the attention of someone who is prepared to "tweak" it in quite a few ways - for the money being asked I would expect no need for "tweaking".

[Flightrite]

I was only asking 'type' IE Jab, Cessna etc. I'd be more concerned the owner brushed it off without a care!

[Bruce Tuncks]

Once in my Jabiru , I smelled exhaust fumes and the reason was that the sticky tape inside the lower ventral fin had come off. This allowed fumes to travel from the tail up to the cabin.

All fixed now.

[Marty_d]

Really??

 

Gawd the back end of the 701 is in no way airtight. Do any others with the boxy aluminium planes have this problem?

[old man emu]

The firewall is supposed to not only prevent fire from escaping the engine bay into the cabin, but it is supposed to prevent gases from entering the cabin. If I recall a recent fatal that was discussed here, the problem was CO poisoning due to unsealed holes in the firewall.

 

Here's a bit of bedtime reading: https://www.faa.gov/data_research/research/med_humanfacs/oamtechreports/1980s/media/am82-15.pdf

 

I am of the opinion that the owner has little aircraft maintenance/knowledge in general. Is unaware of that there is any issue and his maintenance provider would seem to be of similar opinion. How can you be involved in an activity that places often overbearing emphasis on safety, and not be aware of a basic fact. Even the Fire Brigade every Winter warns people about the dangers of unflued heaters, or fires in confined spaces. At work you can't even go into a confined space (drain systems etc.) without have received training in the dangers of toxic gases and the need to have a means of recovering an unconscious person.

 

I bet the log books for this plane were hopeless.

Edited August 4, 2020 by old man emu

[Old Koreelah]

Once in my Jabiru , I smelled exhaust fumes and the reason was that the sticky tape inside the lower ventral fin had come off. This allowed fumes to travel from the tail up to the cabin.

All fixed now.

Good point you raise, Bruce. People often assume CO only comes in the front, but in cars (and probably aircraft as well) people have died from a small leak in the rear of the vehicle. Many aircraft have holes for cables, etc. near the tail which can allow exhaust gas to enter and creep forward. Positive pressure in the fuselage may be the best defence. A reliable and sensitive detector is a must.

[kgwilson]

My cockpit always smells of petrol when I open up after it has been sitting for more than a day but that is due to permeation through the vinylester tank & goes away in a few minutes. I always have fresh air coming in from the 2 NACA vents on either side and have never smelt exhaust fumes even with the canopy open on the ground. I have heard many pilots mention gasses finding their way into the cabin from the tail but as Lyle says positive pressure from fresh air is the best defence plus a good detector. Even when I close the eyeball vents the pressure is so high air leaks in noticeably when the OAT is cold.

[old man emu]

Just having a look at the price of CO detector patches.

Spruce and Specialty have these at about AUD$5.50 each, but you'd have to buy about twenty of them to minimise the postage cost per unit.

[Jerry_Atrick]

Are these not just as good? CO Detector.

 

Should be less than the total price per unit fom the US (inc. postage).

[Old Koreelah]

Just having a look at the price of CO detector patches.

Spruce and Specialty have these at about AUD$5.50 each, but you'd have to buy about twenty of them to minimise the postage cost per unit.

 

Why not buy a proper CO monitor, powered by a 9volt battery? Constant survellance of your safety, a digital readout so there’s no guesswork and an alarm and flashing LED when it’s unsafe?

They’re not expensive.

[FlyBoy1960]

Is it just me, or do the rest of you think this would be a reportable incident. Any carbon monoxide coming back into the cabin/cockpit area is unknown danger, to say I just open a couple of events and try and push it out the back is not really acceptable. I am pretty certain the regulators would be very interested in following up these statements listed in post number one

[Flightrite]

Are these not just as good? CO Detector.

 

Should be less than the total price per unit fom the US (inc. postage).

 

The shipping is more costly than the item!

I just have me of these in the cockpit, around $20 and it shows pulse rate as well.?

[APenNameAndThatA]

Is it just me, or do the rest of you think this would be a reportable incident. Any carbon monoxide coming back into the cabin/cockpit area is unknown danger, to say I just open a couple of events and try and push it out the back is not really acceptable. I am pretty certain the regulators would be very interested in following up these statements listed in post number one

No, you are not the only one. We all need people to pull our hands out of the fire.

[Mewp]

Just brought my new CO2 detector from our very own pilot shop. $7:95 Helps support this forum

[facthunter]

Even when all is well when taxiing there are occasions when you will re-ingest some of the exhaust. in many Aircraft. (even BIG ones) Fit a CO detector and refer to it. They are NOT expensive. Nev

[M61A1]

Even when all is well when taxiing there are occasions when you will re-ingest some of the exhaust. in many Aircraft. (even BIG ones) Fit a CO detector and refer to it. They are NOT expensive. Nev

Yes, that's the reason most helis prefer to start up into wind. if you start with a tailwind, you get a cockpit full of exhaust fumes.

[facthunter]

It has to be remembered the "stink" you get is NOT from CO. CO is practically odourless. Nev

[Yenn]

What will you think if someone dies because of CO2 poisoning in this aircraft. If you cannot bring yourself to report it, you should at least tell the owner to report it and make sure he does.

[Old Koreelah]

It has to be remembered the "stink" you get is NOT from CO. CO is practically odourless. Nev

During engine warmup with cowls shut I still smell a hint of cooking exhaust sealant- an accidental design foible that seem to ensure something smelly leaks in, along with the odourless CO.

I suspect the sense of smell is more likely to get your attention than a digital reading.

[skippydiesel]

It has to be remembered the "stink" you get is NOT from CO. CO is practically odourless. Nev

 

True BUT if you have a strong smell of exhaust you will almost certainly have CO as well.

 

As you point out the converse is that you can get CO poisoning without any accompanying odour.

 

The most common source of CO is from combustion/burning, so smells associated with combustion should be treated as a danger signal.

[Blueadventures]

Are these not just as good? CO Detector.

 

Should be less than the total price per unit fom the US (inc. postage).

I will never waste my money on those; bought a few in the last 2 yeras and shared with mates and myself. Also seen others not happy with them as they black out first sniff of CO. Best have been the longlife ones but no longer available at present. Bought a battery one (Aircraft Spruce $99 US) get readings about 10 on startup and some decents and then clears to 0. Cost $150 AUD but reusable and gives info about levels and when clear.

[Flightrite]

I will never waste my money on those; bought a few in the last 2 yeras and shared with mates and myself. Also seen others not happy with them as they black out first sniff of CO. Best have been the longlife ones but no longer available at present. Bought a battery one (Aircraft Spruce $99 US) get readings about 10 on startup and some decents and then clears to 0. Cost $150 AUD but reusable and gives info about levels and when clear.

 

Agree, they are a waste of money!