Jabiru 4 seater?

[AZNA]

Is there a factory Jabiru with with 4 seats? and it would have to be VH- resisted ?

[marshallarts]

My understanding is that there is not, because the factory-built J230Ds are only certified as LSA, and are therefore stuck with a MTOW of 600kg. The only way to get a Jabiru 4-seater is to build it yourself (the J430 kit) AND register it VH, and you will then get an MTOW of 760kg. Seems to me that a factory J230D is somewhat crippled by the 600kg MTOW - it's clearly structurally capable of much higher, but it's limited by the regulations. I'm guessing it would be very expensive for Jabiru to certify a VH-registered factory-built 4-seat aircraft, and that's why they don't do it - it would necessarily make the aircraft expensive to buy. But it seems a lost opportunity to me, I think it might be attractive to quite a lot of people. If I was in the market for an aircraft, I'd very much like to be able to look at an Australian light 4-seater that I didn't have to build myself. I'd love to be corrected, but I don't think such a thing exists.

Edited August 11, 2020 by marshallarts

[facthunter]

I know of a particular J 430 that was operated in the centre and it didn't like hot days. I don't recollect how it was registered. Nev

[Yenn]

There is a Jab 4 seater, but I suppose it must be owner built. It cannot be RAAus rego, because they have a max of 2 seats. I would have to be GA rego and experimental. We have the same plane at our strip, with 2 seats and RAAus rego.

[kgwilson]

There is a J430 with a Camit engine just arrived at South Grafton & it is for sale. Don't know how the much bloke wants but it apparently goes like the clappers. It looks pristine.

[SSCBD]

There is a Jab 4 seater, but I suppose it must be owner built. It cannot be RAAus rego, because they have a max of 2 seats. I would have to be GA rego and experimental. We have the same plane at our strip, with 2 seats and RAAus rego.

I believe you can take the back seats out of the VH rego J240 and then it can be on the RAA rego.

[kgwilson]

All you need to do is remove the rear seats & seatbelts & it can be registered with RA-Aus. The MTOW then reduces to 600kg so it all depends on what you want to do.

[planesmaker]

I love my j400

[marshallarts]

Is that an earlier iteration of the J430?

[skippydiesel]

I doubt that the Jab 4 seater is capable of lifting much more than 2 small adults and 2 small children on a nice cool .

My understanding is that there is not, because the factory-built J230Ds are only certified as LSA, and are therefore stuck with a MTOW of 600kg. The only way to get a Jabiru 4-seater is to build it yourself (the J430 kit) AND register it VH, and you will then get an MTOW of 760kg. Seems to me that a factory J230D is somewhat crippled by the 600kg MTOW - it's clearly structurally capable of much higher, but it's limited by the regulations. I'm guessing it would be very expensive for Jabiru to certify a VH-registered factory-built 4-seat aircraft, and that's why they don't do it - it would necessarily make the aircraft expensive to buy. But it seems a lost opportunity to me, I think it might be attractive to quite a lot of people. If I was in the market for an aircraft, I'd very much like to be able to look at an Australian light 4-seater that I didn't have to build myself. I'd love to be corrected, but I don't think such a thing exists.

 

Not a 4 seater for avarage size adults and wouold probably wilt with 3 on a warm day. Its best feature is its volume (space) for a small adult to camp in.

[marshallarts]

Not a 4 seater for avarage size adults and wouold probably wilt with 3 on a warm day.

 

Yes I get that. 760kg is a squeeze for 4 people of almost any size plus fuel plus stuff, and 120hp is about the minimum you would want up front, especially if it's driving a fixed pitch propeller. But as an "occasional" 2+1 or 2+2 kids I think it could still have some appeal. Probably should be in a separate thread, but has anyone ever put a bigger non-Jabiru engine in a Jabiru? How about a Jabiru 430 with a Rotax 915iS and in-flight adjustable prop? Might go quite nicely. But probably fraught with all sorts of regulatory problems.

[kgwilson]

The J430 empty wieght is supposed to be 340kg but most 230s are 360-370 kg & they don't have 2 extra seats so I think in reality with decent instrumentation etc the useful payload is 380-390 kg. Add full fuel of 135 litres and you are down to 286 kg so you can carry 4 x 70kg people & no baggage or 2 100kg people & 85kgs of baggage. In reality it is a very good 2 seater with lots of room for gear and excellent range. If you want a proper 4 seater buy a C172 or PA 28 of for a $million or so a Cirrus SR22.

[facthunter]

A C-172 is pretty limited also as a "proper" 4 seater.. Nev

[turboplanner]

Just about all the light 4 seaters are; Want to do a long leg? Drop 1 or 2 pax, Want to carry 4 heavy people? don't take baggage and flight plan for a series of short legs for refuelling.

If you step up to something like a 182 it all starts again but with more load or fuel or baggage.

 

Juggling range/pax wt/baggage is an integral part of flying.

[GraemeK]

A C-172 is pretty limited also as a "proper" 4 seater.. Nev

As is a PA-28!

[marshallarts]

In reality it is a very good 2 seater with lots of room for gear and excellent range.

 

[ refers to the J430 ]

Yes! And even in that capacity, it would be so good to be able to get one, factory-built.

[turboplanner]

As is a PA-28!

That's true, and when you go up to the single engine six seaters, you'll find the same situation; until you get to the upper end the six seaters can't carry six heavy people and full fuel either.

 

The way to look at the J430, C172, PA28, six seaters is that they are designed to fit various application slots:

 

• Long range but light load
  
• heavy load but short range
  
• medium range cross country for two people and holiday baggage (4 seaters) or four people and holiday luggage (6 seaters)
  

If you want to fly for holidays and take folding bikes again, you have another dynamic and so on.

 

We've had a few threads about extending bladder stops over the years, but it's not just bladders that reach the end of their endurance, it's your fatigue level as well, and most of all it's passengers used to IMC flying on airlines who are quick to turn on you if there are any delays. If you flight plan for 800 Nm through three States, you're also going to be guessing two different weather patterns most of the time vs short legs where you have time to replan weather and fuel for the shorter next leg on the ground etc.

 

This spread sheet shows you another dynamic where you hire different aircraft for different jobs you might want to do.

If you just want to bring your currency up, then you look for the lowest cost per hour, if you want to do a 100 Nm trip to a fly in, you may still be looking at the lowest hourly rate, but if you want to fly from Melbourne up the centre, across to the gulf, up to the tip down through the Whitsunday strips and back again, it's a vastly different picture, and this shows how the cost per nautical mile for a full aircraft comes down substantially as the aircraft specification goes up, and if you drop 1 or 2 pax to get the fuel or luggage rate up, in some cases it gets even better and you get a substantially faster trip. The cost base is actual hire rates of aircraft at June 2013, so those heady rates are gone, but the cost differences will be the same.

 

 

[kgwilson]

When the C172 and PA 28 were designed the average person weighed a whole lot less that the average person now so 4 people in 1970 weigh about the same as 3 people now. I don't know what the actual average is now but 100 kg is not considered big any more. In 1970 I barely weighed 60kg at 20 years old. Now I weigh 75 kg 50 years later & I am considered a lightweight. Overweight people now (depending on height) start at 120kg & obese people are 150 to 180 kgs or more.

[turboplanner]

When the C172 and PA 28 were designed the average person weighed a whole lot less that the average person now so 4 people in 1970 weigh about the same as 3 people now. I don't know what the actual average is now but 100 kg is not considered big any more. In 1970 I barely weighed 60kg at 20 years old. Now I weigh 75 kg 50 years later & I am considered a lightweight. Overweight people now (depending on height) start at 120kg & obese people are 150 to 180 kgs or more.

The aircraft doesn't know that though, it's moment calculations are still the same as when it was designed, which is why we have to input exact mass on the day. from the scales in the clubrooms.

Offsetting the fact that you rightly point out, there are still plenty of undersized people around to offset the heavy ones, but particularly in some RA Aircraft there's a cutoff point where a heavy person has to make some decisions.

[planesmaker]

Yes the j400 is the same as a j430 but with the shorter wings. Empty wt 345kg useful load 355kg good for my family at the moment. Good aircraft. Lifts more than a c172, cruises faster, climbs much much better, all on half the fuel.

[pmccarthy]

I toured a lot in the early 1970s with 3 pax and full fuel and baggage in a Cherokee 180. Load was never a problem. Because we all weighed about 70 kg.

[marshallarts]

Yes the j400 is the same as a j430 but with the shorter wings. Empty wt 345kg useful load 355kg good for my family at the moment. Good aircraft. Lifts more than a c172, cruises faster, climbs much much better, all on half the fuel.

 

Sounds good. There is no mention of a J400 on the Jabiru website nowadays, I wonder if they would still put a kit together with the shorter wings? And I guess it needs to be pointed out that there is actually one other way to acquire one of these (or any J4xx), apart from building it - find a used one! But not very common I'd guess.

[Downunder]

A pricey one in Mongolia.....

And another older add.....

https://jabiru.net.au/more/for-sale/

 

[kgwilson]

I toured a lot in the early 1970s with 3 pax and full fuel and baggage in a Cherokee 180. Load was never a problem. Because we all weighed about 70 kg.

My old aero club owned 3 x C172s and 2 x PA28-181 Archers & we regularly took them away on club trips with 4 people in each & all our gear for the weekend right up until the last one I remember going to which was Warbirds over Wanaka in 2000 which was a 2 day trip each way. The pilots & passengers were of varying sizes & we were usually overloaded at takeoff but after a bit of fuel burn all good. Yes I know that isn't legal but we always did a trip W&B and arranged the load for balance. I don't think that would work today as everyone is somewhat heavier even us lighties.

[marshallarts]

I note the ads above from the Jabiru website. Seems pointless to me to build a J400 then register it RAA, which (I presume) limits it to 600kg MTOW.