flight planning over tiger country?

[Old Koreelah]

One disadvantage of an unused chute is that the weight increases your stall speed and thus requires a slightly faster arrival on landing.

[RFguy]

One disadvantage of an unused chute is that the weight increases your stall speed and thus requires a slightly faster arrival on landing.

Well 10 to 20kg (LSA class) for a typical BRS system I read (Whole Aircraft Rescue Parachute Systems | BRS Aerospace) assuming it lives in your airplane where all it does is cut into your MTOW and not the CoG (IE no need for ballast ). There might need to be a plate or something installed in a composite AC also to attach it to...

There is a BRS thread on the site, I might go and read it.

 

but back to the thread topic, flight planning over the tigers. In some parts of the world, there really would be tigers.

Edited August 15, 2020 by RFguy

[RFguy]

and there is a snobby part of me that thinks parachutes encourage moral hazard.

 

Sure there is a place for them - Incapacitated pilot. Mid air collision(although wouldn't the airframe destroy itself after losing a wing or tail?)

[Mike Borgelt]

I take it you folks aren't going to fly Port Pirie going west over the gulf or vice versa, or Tangalooma - Bribie anytime soon?

Much of aviation is calculated risk. You can minimise it to some extent but it becomes a utility vs risk thing.

 

Parachutes? You bet. Strapped to our backs. Doors top hinged. Open door, headset off, seatbelt undone, roll off seat behind landing gear leg. Pull ripcord with both hands. I figure there are whole classes of accidents we won't be there for. Doesn't help in all circumstances, of course. Personal chutes are also steerable, unlike the BRS.

 

Bruce Tuncks is right about the airspace limits causing unnecessary hazard but that is typical of this benighted, bureaucrat ridden country.

One day somebody will manage to explain to me in rational terms why CASA wants to run several different GA systems when we all fly in the same Australian airspace.

[Lozzer]

Lots of good points in the above posts.

I regularly operate a motor glider out of the Sydney Basin and over the Blue Mountains and often mention to people that after having flown all over the country, this area is one of the most rugged.

Taking safety height just after departing and maintaining same during cruise/climb towards the upper limit of the step is standard.

26:1 opens up the landing options over GA glide performance and so I'm always amazed while at around 7000' to look down too often to see a GA pilot just hundreds of feet above the tree tops.

One consideration worth expanding is that of utilising any area wind to maximise ground speed and range. 10kn westerly at 5000' over the Blue Mts is unusually calm and 20-30kn westerlies are far more common. The enhanced glide range utilising any tail wind component on an aircraft cruising at 60-80kn is significant. So it may well be a better option to plan for , and turn for a landing area much further away yet more reachable with the higher ground speed from a significant tailwind component.

The GAF Grid Point Wind and Temp forecasts at levels to 10000' are generally fairly accurate and easily confirmed using GPS.

http://www.bom.gov.au/aviation/charts/grid-point-forecasts/#

There is a popular piece of software in gliding circles called XCSoar which offers an astounding range of info. One function is where it provides a shaded overlay on the map defining the limits of glide range under the prevailing conditions and an estimated arrival height at A/Ds within that range which is consistently reliable. You never trust your life to technology (especially electronic devices and 'infernal combustion engines' LOL) but its a useful tool for flight planning.

[RFguy]

 

I take it you folks aren't going to fly Port Pirie going west over the gulf or vice versa, or Tangalooma - Bribie anytime soon?

Parachutes? You bet. Strapped t

Hi Mike, all my references have been to a aircraft parachute of course. Flying over the gulf. Well yeah now you really have turned up the knob to '10' . Going over land is a long way extra.

 

Oh, personal parachute, that's different. Having jumped out with a parachute. I wonder about how successful exit is from an aircraft where some control linkage has disconnected. I have no idea. Loss of power over the gulf, would you ditch it or jump out with chute ?

[Mike Borgelt]

Hi Mike, all my references have been to a aircraft parachute of course. Flying over the gulf. Well yeah now you really have turned up the knob to '10' . Going over land is a long way extra.

 

Oh, personal parachute, that's different. Having jumped out with a parachute. I wonder about how successful exit is from an aircraft where some control linkage has disconnected. I have no idea. Loss of power over the gulf, would you ditch it or jump out with chute ?

Been done numerous times from gliders with structural or control systems failures sometimes mid airs. Helps to be high to begin with and have thought about things beforehand. You'd be surprised at the number of top level contest pilots who had not, plus idiots who were wearing the chute so that a bailout would result in their heads being removed by the CHEST (not NECK) strap.

As the National Parachute Company (we used to sell them) says, "Your one last chance".

 

Most times over the Gulf if going to Pirie I'd be high and delay descent until in easy glide range.

Tangalooma to Bribie when going to/from Caloundra isn't all that far but the shortest distance has a 3500' airspace step. Go just outside and you can go to 4500'.

 

Going to/from Camden to points north is terrible, not help by Sydney Approach being the most uncooperative controllers in Australia and the cretins at RAAF Richmond. They even lose properly filed flight plans and don't know the VFR reporting points. That's Australian aviation.

[pmccarthy]

Having flown Bass Strait several times behind Lycoming and Rotax, I accept that that the chance of survival in that water is very low. I wear a life jacket and carry a beacon, but in the end it is like riding a motorbike at speed or rock climbing. Do all you can to mitigate the risk, then decide if the experience is worth it.

[Thruster88]

As pilots we have lots of choice in how we deal with the risk of being eaten by a tiger. Route, altitude, weather, aircraft, engine, experience and more.

[Bosi72]

Check the weather, especially winds. 30-40kt steady wind is great, but gusting 30-40kt is not. I hunt in the Alps and it sounds scary when you hear the wind rolling over the mountains. But it is beautiful when calm. Safe landings!

[jackc]

This guide is your friend......

[Rodj]

As a newbie based in Canberra and flying out of Moruya this has been a really useful topic as this stuff is front of mind for me, thanks! I've done a few nav's in the last couple of weeks, trying to get my nav endorsement. Flying from Moruya this time of year can be challenging as there's so often cloud blocking a run inland over the mountains. I get a bit antsy "sneaking" over tiger country under the mountains with small altitude margins but I'm starting to learn where the right valleys with some cleared fields are should the worst happen. For the route under discussion my inclination would be to head to Moruya and then along the coast (Frogs Hollow, Merimbula, Mallacoota etc) or down the Monaro valley before striking east to Merimbula and around. It's a long way around I guess but the clouds seem to clear along the coast and I feel like there's always a beach to land on in the worst case. Is that viable / good / bad thinking? I've had to divert twice now trying to get over the mountains due to sev turb / mtn waves, feeling constrained for altitude by clouds. Maybe one day I'll get the experience and confidence to fly over the clouds but for the moment that feels too risky.

[kgwilson]

Overthinking any situation will cause more stress and anxiety than if you look at it with genuine logic. Aviation is a risk, so is getting out of bed. It is the worst possible consequence of taking that risk that you need to consider. That is where control measures come in and putting such measures in to reduce the perceived risk.

 

My flying career began with Hang Gliding in the 70s when the risk was right up there. I survived even after plenty of crashes and landing in a tree once. When I got my PPL I made plently of flights over tiger country and out to sea. Each time I assessed the risk and decided that all the control measures reduced the risk level to one that was acceptable to me. This is a personal decision to be made by each of us in any situation and the same situation will be acceptable to some and completely out of the question for others.

[Bosi72]

earlier this week...

 

 

Overflying Victorian High Country

 

In my previous life before PPL, nearly every weekend was spent in Victoria's High country in the triangle between Melbourne, Wangaratta and Bairnsdale, either bush camping with family and friends or Amateur radio expeditions or deer hunting or any of my 100 other hobbies 🙂

The time has come to see the beautiful country from the above.

Last Monday the weather forecast was looking very promising with a large high pressure system over Victoria, so why not go bush flying ?

I already have more than 50 flight plans in my EFB created during Covid times, so I quickly pulled out the "Bush" plan and started "fine tuning" the plan.

 

 

Pre-planning included obtaining NAIPS weather forecasts GAF, GWPT, status of restricted area R359E, frequencies along the route, surveying landing areas, re-checking W&B, Take-off /Landing charts and Fuel calculations. Finally submitting a plan via NAIPS portal.

 

 

Preparation also included testing PLB, Sat Phone, UHF CB radio, Topographic maps, First aid kit, food rations and water. Two Milo bars are only for desert 😊

The plan was to climb to 3500ft to Cardinia reservoir (CARE), then climb 5500ft to Jessop (Y0BU), climb to 7500ft to Snowy Range (Y0M6).

Then "oblique U-turn" towards Mansfield (YMFD) descending to 6500ft, Alexandra (YAXA), Glenburn (GBR) at 4500ft, Lilydale (YLIL) at 2500ft, Narre Warren (NRW) and back to Tyabb.

As usual, detailed pre-flight inspection, full oil 8qts and full fuel 140lit, runup checks passed, time to fly 🙂

 

 

Not long after Cardinia I realised 5500ft might be low, I requested MLCEN for Flight plan amendment, to climb at 7500ft over the mountains and also confirmed the status of Restricted Area R359E.

 

 

Flight was amazing, great views whilst listening comms on MLCEN and performing regular CLEAROF checklist. I spotted a big bird around Matlock at 8000ft. I also recognised Warburton, Upper Yarra reservoir, Woods Point, Licola, Arbuckle, Howitt plains, Mt Buller, Mansfield, Lake Eildon (lots of campers around lake), all those places where I bushwalked. Finally I recognised Melbourne features such as Bay, Mt Dandenong in the distance all way from Glenburn.

 

 

I had mobile reception all the time, my Mrs called me when my portable ADSB-out disappeared from Flight Aware 🙂

 

 

This time the flight was only overflying all aerodromes, but the next one will be landing as soon as we return back to Covid-normal stage.

 

 

Thank you for reading.

 

Some technical data:

Aircraft

1960 Cessna 172A

145hp 6cyl Continental o300c

Oil 8qty

Fuel 2x70lit, endurance 3hr 58min

 

Trip

Distance 224nm

Time 2.6hrs

Planned TAS 85kt (not rushing)

Fuel consumed for the trip 55 lit, averaging 21 lit/hr vs. 34 lit/hr as per POH, Oil consumed 0.5qt

I keep RPM's around the beginning of green 2200rpm, then lean CHT until Rich of Peak.

If needed, more power is always available.

 

 

Edited November 5, 2020 by Bosi72

[naremman]

On 14/08/2020 at 1:55 PM, Yenn said:

There is no way you will fly direct from Canberra to Latrobe Valley. A large part of that route is in "Designated remote area" Whichever way you go it will be long and convoluted. Start planning by looking at where the remote area is, then the restricted areas you have to steer clear of and the controlled areas or military areas. Then you can pick a route and keep refining it until you are happy with it, but it is not going to be 204 deg, 218 nm.

Yenn, I can relate an experience when something similar was done.

 

Following its manufacture my Airtourer was due for delivery to Latrobe Valley Aero Club around May 1964. Henry Millicer took leave as the Chief Designer at Victa and volunteered to deliver said aircraft. Henry, being Henry had absolute faith in his aircraft and the brand new Rolls Royce 0-200A, drew a straight line from Bankstown to Morwell and launched off for 8000" with all the performance a 100 Hp Airtourer can summon. Henry did vouch that the heater worked as designed!

 

Henry was recalling the flight at an Airtourer Association AGM at Latrobe Valley in 1982, and i thought that Henry was embellishing the story just a little, when CFI John Willis verified that Henry was accurately recalling events. I doubt that John would have been advocating such a practice to become the norm!

[facthunter]

I wouldn't either. It's not clever in a single and the 100 HP Victa was underpowered. Nev

[Student Pilot]

I have always planned direct no matter what the country. If the choice is water or timber I always fly over the timber. All single engine aircraft, piston or turbine.

[Jase T]

You haven't lived until you have done night single engine IFR in actual.....

[Bosi72]

For some reason photos didn't came through... Need to figure out how to upload photos. Is there an administrator on this page who can delete my previous post so that I can post new one with the photos? Thanks

[pmccarthy]

I did some training in a 100hp Victa at Broken Hill in summer. Underpowered is an understatement, but $11.50 an hour wet was as good as it got.

[facthunter]

In cool climates you might get away with it. I was Part of an evaluation Group who were of the same view of the early version. Nev

[Yenn]

After flying the old Victa out of Whyalla in Summer I realised how badly they performed and eventually I believe they were grounded if MSL temp exceeded 30 deg C.

I still have a soft spot for the old plane.

[naremman]

Nev, et  al, a bit of thread  drift here. 

 

When the Airtourer was introduced to the market in 1962 it was unique as a civil designed,  all metal acrobatic training aircraft. It's contemporaries were Tigers, Chippies, Colts, early C150s, or C172 or PA 28, none of them promising earth shattering performance. Like all aircraft, introduce heat and elevation and the scenario does not improve. Whilst the early Airtourer was satisfactory in temperate coastal locations, after a short visit to Alice Springs it did not take long for the 115 version to become an option. 

 

I have heard the underpowered comment  frequently over the years. After 45 years ownership of an Airtourer 100 I contend that my aircraft is "adequately powered ". Admittedly I have one of the better performing 100s, and it has safely conveyed us across the Nullabor eleven times, and given me very few occasions of fright. I have flown some 100s which have not performed as well as mine, and one with a cruise pitch propeller which was positively frightening. 

 

I recall Randy Green, the Test Pilot for both the wooden and metal Airtourers, addressing the 1984 Airtourer Association  AGM: "You blokes who reckon the 100 is underpowered don't know what you are talking about.  FMM (wooden Airtourer) flew on 65 horsepower, and Henry insisted on coming along for a ride too. That is underpowered!"

 

When I learnt to fly some of my flying was in a C150G at Narrogin during the heat of February and March. My Instructor was ex Army and had been a Porter pilot, so two up in a C150 in February heat was probably a severe contrast, but his insistence on flying to the appropriate airspeed, and the need for the balance ball to be centered at all times was a lesson well learnt. He also gave me a go around from late in the flare with 40 degrees of flap down and that did produce a prolonged fright! The same CFI was of the mind to put some weldmesh behind the front seats of the three  Cherokee 140s during the summer months. The Club had experienced the trauma a year previously when four ladies died just past the trees at the end of the runway.

 

For 32 years I flew both the Airtourer and C172M which I had a share in. Both of them at max all up weight  in a WA Wheatbelt summer required some good mental attention before and during the flight. I rarely flew the 172 at gross, yet any two seater two up and a bit of fuel is usually close to gross and performs accordingly. MAUW in Normal category in the Airtourer is 1650 lbs, but the Aerobatic category reduces to 1550 lbs which does produce a noticeable change.

 

It would be great to have Poteroos perspective as he has Airtourer time, as well as PNG and Aggie time and probably understands underpowered and underperforming   better than  most of us. 

[facthunter]

"We" had to chose as to it's suitability as a club trainer at a location where hot days and sudden wind changes happened... Nor would I say a C-172 is a four person plane to put on line as such. I'd had plenty of "hot and high" experience. It's not really whether I or "special" pilots CAN fly it. The 115 was more acceptable for the purpose. Henry was a bit precious about his BABY The "other two" gave him a hard time and eventually it went to NZ. so perhaps he was Justified. Nev

[RFguy]

On tiger country.

When  I started flying, I used to consider glide performance of a plane super important . Now, not so much- why :

Well, now I have done more EPs into paddocks than I can count. dozens and dozens.. my visual judgement for that plane is pretty good  now.

 

Where glide performance  not such a big deal :   Engine failure away from any strip, over paddocks ....if you cannot get back to the next usable bush strip (you did look at this in your flight plan of course...)  , then you are going to go for the best looking place in the first couple of minutes ! And that is NOT going to be very far away from your current location- probably almost below you ----- you want to acheive the target landing spot with plenty of margin  to adjust the descent and path.

....so a 12 :1 versus 8:1 glide isnt going to make much difference here. It might even make it more difficult to land in a short strip, IE the need to deliberately fly it onto the touchdown spot instead of floating until it drops on the ground.. 

 

Pro glide 1: In the case of flying over what you cannot land on ,  (which is up to you  if you do that, I will not judge)  the good glide is useful . IE climb  go to 10,000 feet, knowing you can cross  the rugged granite of the snowy mountains even with an engine failure  .

Pro glide 2) : on a leg between  more friendly places you might land- bush strips etc, the glide might get you there to strip that is kind to the aircraft... certainly a better option than a tall wheat paddock.

In those two pro glide scenarios, knowing the wind direction is pretty critical to which way you turn.

 

discuss.

 

-glen