18 K - Jesus Mary and Joseph - I saw this - is this really the cost STUDENTS are paying for RAA x Cert

[facthunter]

Money doesn't buy much these days. We don't make much of anything here either, now. (unfortunately). Don't see it getting any better..Nev

[turboplanner]

i had not realised that Schutt was using the walmart principle when I did a fair bit of my training with them. I must say that they were the most professional and competent training school that I flew with. Latrobe valley Aero Club were next in my opinion and some others hardly rated at all. When I got involved with Ultralight flying I was appalled at the poor standards of training, except for one CFI working on his own.

I was very lucky not to be paying the ultra high prices that seem to be the going rate nowadays.

Schutt and others were using brand new aircraft at the time and if you scale off a current Cessna 172 at around $380,000 new I suspect the hourly hire rate would be a lot less than the package mentioned earlier.

[poteroo]

At the risk of being a boring old fart, I think that the major reason that costs have escalated is because we have so much more to teach students today: particularly more emphasis on procedures, ie radio use, sealed runway ops, traffic mix, lengthy checklists, and more rules & regs. All of which leaves less time for real skills development. When a student pilot had no radio, a huge green 'allover' paddock, a windsock, nobody else within 50 miles, a 4 item checklist, and the rule book in the office: the focus was just on skills. Less than 10 hrs to solo was common. The procedures were taught later: as required by the pilots future plans.

 

happy days,

[APenNameAndThatA]

correct but in RAA aircraft

If you fly an RAA aicraft in Class D, you need a Class 2 medical.

[APenNameAndThatA]

In marketing there's something known as the Walmart Principle and it goes something like this:

For every $5.95 product in a Walmart store the gross profit is 3 cents.

Most small businesses would be costing for a gross of $3.00, so assuming they could buy at the same price as Walmart, their sell price would be $8.92, but they can'y buy at that rate so their retail would be around $9.99. and they will all tell you Walmart can't be making any money selling for $5.95.

Walmart explained the principle once - the compounding effect of volume: For every $5.95 product in their stores, because they had so many stores and because the product was so affordable, they made $1 million net profit, so multiply that by the number of products and it made one of the world's greatest marketing juggernauts.

If you want to see this replicated in Australia, just look at the earnings of Kogan.

What people like Bib Stillwell and Arthur Schutt did was apply the Walmart principle, and created a thriving industry. Some people would argue that was because more people were doing CPL training because there were more openings, but apart from the instructors who were racking up hours for their CPL (and the proportion was about 1 per 30 students, I can't remember the club functions being filled with would-be CPLs.

In marketing there's something known as the Walmart Principle and it goes something like this:

For every $5.95 product in a Walmart store the gross profit is 3 cents.

Most small businesses would be costing for a gross of $3.00, so assuming they could buy at the same price as Walmart, their sell price would be $8.92, but they can'y buy at that rate so their retail would be around $9.99. and they will all tell you Walmart can't be making any money selling for $5.95.

Walmart explained the principle once - the compounding effect of volume: For every $5.95 product in their stores, because they had so many stores and because the product was so affordable, they made $1 million net profit, so multiply that by the number of products and it made one of the world's greatest marketing juggernauts.

If you want to see this replicated in Australia, just look at the earnings of Kogan.

What people like Bib Stillwell and Arthur Schutt did was apply the Walmart principle, and created a thriving industry. Some people would argue that was because more people were doing CPL training because there were more openings, but apart from the instructors who were racking up hours for their CPL (and the proportion was about 1 per 30 students, I can't remember the club functions being filled with would-be CPLs.

In flight training, volume is limited and instructors can only train one person at a time.

[turboplanner]

In flight training, volume is limited and instructors can only train one person at a time.

We have about fifteen million people to choose from and we once had the knowledge of how to use students to teach students and so coped with exponential expansion.

[SSCBD]

If you fly an RAA aicraft in Class D, you need a Class 2 medical.

That’s what I said read the

If you fly an RAA aicraft in Class D, you need a Class 2 medical.

Read the first line of the post

[gibby]

The costs outlined in the original post are probably not that far off, invest in a Sling 2 around $140K, either invest or lease hanger and office/training room, insurance, maintenance and repairs, fuel, if you are paying staff/ instructors there is workcover and other costs, admin, training and regulation costs. Now that we have added all the costs up, if it is your business you actually have to make money.

The only wealthy flight schools I have seen seem to teach international pilots, I am yet to see a general small flight training school that have spare cash laying around

[skippydiesel]

I have "skipped" through this conversation, so hope I am not repeating someone else's comment, apologies if so.

 

Gibby (above) - your point is well made

 

As in all service industries there are high cost & low cost providers.

 

Cost is not a good indicator of quality.

 

It behoves the user (student) to research the range of providers out there and make an informed decision.

 

Lets face it, overheads for a city/large town based flying school are probably far greater than some little hinterland/country grass strip. Your travel & possibly accommodation costs, should also be a factor in your decision making.

 

As an example: - I recently had a conversation with my first GA flying instructor (30 years ago). I was shocked to find out he now charges $200/hr for his services. By the way he is now also CFI for a number of country clubs/schools. He is not only a talented pilot but a great educator/instructor. The conversation went on and I discovered he doesnt charge for briefings or any on ground education. He only gets fuel (no travel or accommodation allowance) or reword for all the paperwork he does as CFI - his remuneration now looks very small indeed for what he does. So Gibby's point is not lost on me - check out the circumstances befor you rush to judge.

[kgwilson]

In every business there must be robust market research resulting in a capital investment to set it all up and then there are operating costs. Capital will be depreciated at certain rates over its taxable and replacement lifecycle. Much of the initial investment is usually borrowed in secured loans such as mortgages. Operating costs usually have to be paid from the income received by the business on an ongoing basis, the costs of servicing the business debt also have to be paid on this basis and the rest is profit after tax. This is why you must be professional and develop a solid business plan both for the short (up to 5 years) and long term (10 years plus).

 

All of this is well and good if your research has determined that your charge out rates or selling price will attract enough customers for the business to continue and preferably thrive. You can still charge double what the bloke down the road charges so long as the service you provide is seen as being worth paying the extra. In other words quality.

 

21st century buyers are now pretty used to the Walmart/Bunnings model and want the cheapest they can get so it is hard though not impossible to pitch at those with more money to get rid of. So why have a trainer that costs 150k when you can have one (new) for 50k less. Flash premises and Expresso machines are also unlikely to attract budding pilots either because they are looking for the best bang for their buck. Unless you have a captive market, charging $400 an hour is not going to get you any business if your competitor across the tarmac is charging $200.

 

More than 50% of new business startups in Australia fail within the first 5 years. Why? Because one or more of the things that should be done was not. Occasionally something comes along that will blow everything out of the water & right now that is Covid-19. The only thing to combat that is diversification and flexibility.

 

When I began my training it was mostly done by Clubs with Instructors building their hours at very little return so they could move to that elusive commercial role. That model has pretty much disappeared now so the cost has spiralled way beyond the rate of inflation because the model is now about making a good living and profit. But if one organisation is charging $200 & providing a quality service why would you pay twice that for the same thing?

[skippydiesel]

Hi Kgwilson - Many years ago I was fortunate to get a little training/insight to what was known back then as Industrial Psychology. One comportment of this was how much will a person pay for a product/service. Very interesting - we humans seem to be hard wired to assume that the more we pay, the better the service/product. Enhance this with some clever but predictable "packaging/presentation" (marketing) and most of us can be induced to happily pay more. Perception - you used the words "be seen as" is soooo easy to manipulate. To get past it one must dig hard/research , deny your instinct and make a rational choice/decision - not as easy as it sounds.

[gibby]

In every business there must be robust market research resulting in a capital investment to set it all up and then there are operating costs. Capital will be depreciated at certain rates over its taxable and replacement lifecycle. Much of the initial investment is usually borrowed in secured loans such as mortgages. Operating costs usually have to be paid from the income received by the business on an ongoing basis, the costs of servicing the business debt also have to be paid on this basis and the rest is profit after tax. This is why you must be professional and develop a solid business plan both for the short (up to 5 years) and long term (10 years plus).

 

All of this is well and good if your research has determined that your charge out rates or selling price will attract enough customers for the business to continue and preferably thrive. You can still charge double what the bloke down the road charges so long as the service you provide is seen as being worth paying the extra. In other words quality.

 

21st century buyers are now pretty used to the Walmart/Bunnings model and want the cheapest they can get so it is hard though not impossible to pitch at those with more money to get rid of. So why have a trainer that costs 150k when you can have one (new) for 50k less. Flash premises and Expresso machines are also unlikely to attract budding pilots either because they are looking for the best bang for their buck. Unless you have a captive market, charging $400 an hour is not going to get you any business if your competitor across the tarmac is charging $200.

 

More than 50% of new business startups in Australia fail within the first 5 years. Why? Because one or more of the things that should be done was not. Occasionally something comes along that will blow everything out of the water & right now that is Covid-19. The only thing to combat that is diversification and flexibility.

 

When I began my training it was mostly done by Clubs with Instructors building their hours at very little return so they could move to that elusive commercial role. That model has pretty much disappeared now so the cost has spiralled way beyond the rate of inflation because the model is now about making a good living and profit. But if one organisation is charging $200 & providing a quality service why would you pay twice that for the same thing?

Can you tell me what factory built training aircraft is under $50K

There are very few Clubs doing flight training these days due to the many unpaid hours members need to put in to run such an operation and ongoing maintenance costs its become unviable

At $200 an hour with no charge for ground schooling/ debrief they certainly are not doing it for money just maybe just the love

A few years ago I went to Bankstown for unrelated business and remember looking at a flying school with poorly presented aircraft, an office that looked similar and thought to myself, why would I train here. Most young new pilots want flash and fancy these days

21st century buyers also learn the hard way that cheap is not always better

[kgwilson]

50k less than 150k is 100k. You can get a brand new J170 for that. Flash & fancy doesn't make for better training or a better pilot. Cheap is not always better but if you get the same result for half the price why pay double?

[NT5224]

I believe the RAA slogan these days is ‘A Pilot in every home’.

 

That strikes me as rather aspirational if it now costs 18K to get a recreational certificate. How many households can afford that much on what is essentially a hobby?

 

I suspect that the company advertising flight training at those prices is going to run into lean times ahead with the coming recession.

 

Good article in this month’s ‘Australian Flying’ about the likely impacts of COVID on the GA industry.

 

 

Alan

[Butch]

That strikes me as rather aspirational if it now costs 18K to get a recreational certificate.

Come and train in Bendigo!

 

Full instruction $272 per flying hour in a Tecnam P92 ......$255 if you pre pay.

 

25 hours @ $255 = $6,375.

 

Fantastic Instructors that are passionate about their job and a local flying club that's not out to rip students off.

 

Well worth the drive up from Melbourne , lots of open space, good weather and 4 aircraft to train in or hire.

Edited August 21, 2020 by Butch

[Butch]

Well come and visit when all the Covits sorted ! ?

Edited August 21, 2020 by Butch

[kgwilson]

The whole concept regarding recreational flying was supposed to be simplicity and reasonable cost so the average person could learn to fly without the high cost and complexity of GA aircraft and issues surrounding controlled airspace. While the performance gap has closed with many RA Aircraft now out performing many GA singles, they are still a massive measure cheaper than almost any new GA aircraft but with a maximum of 2 seats & 45 knots stall. They are invariably cheaper to operate and the qualification is simpler and therefore less costly to obtain. If you are paying 18k to get your RA Pilot Certificate you have rocks in your head. Most people should be able to get there for a minimum of about $6,000 for a natural & $8,000 for someone needing a bit more instruction.

 

I have heard of one student though who has more than 50 hours dual & 0 hours solo. I think this person just enjoys being able to fly the aircraft with the security of having an expert beside him.

[davo194]

Hastings District Flying Club in Port Macquarie. $210 dual in Sling 2. Check out www.hdfc.com.au

[coljones]

Go to The Oaks. Both Daves Flying School and Sydney Recreational Flying Club have first class training at well under $200/hr and none of the time wasting procedures you get at busy airports like YSBK.

[Hargraves]

This push to wanabe GA makes me sick, along with a great many rec pilots i suspect, if I wanted the Bullshit GA garbage I would have done it in the first place. Flying strickly for fun dose'nt need this shit.

[Orf]

If someone really wants to save money while learning to fly, try this:

1. Study aviation theory for two or three months before looking at an aircraft.

2. Ask aviators at your local airfield to explain any parts of the theory you do not understand.

3. Leave home and go to a place that has good weather at that time of the year. With no day to day family affairs to worry about, reduces tension and increases learning.

4. Take up lodgings for as long as it takes.

5. Be available to fly twice a day.

6. Study the theory in between flight and at night.

7. Be prepared for some hard work.

8. Return home a qualified pilot.

[Frankus1aust]

$417.00 per lesson? How much is flying hours and how much briefing? Assume 1 hour flying Aircraft cost $140.00, Instructor 1 hour $50.00, Briefing say 30 minutes and debrief 20 minutes, $40.00, landing/airport fees say $25.00. So the total is now $255.00 plus GST $25.50 & we are up to $280.50. These costs I reckon are generous so the rest is extortion. Our local school charges $200.00/hour including briefings etc in a Jab 160 & I thought that was expensive.

 

My local school is ~ $240.00 per hour (J160) dual and this includes the basic pre flight briefing. Time to a cert is realistically 35- 45 hrs.

[Butch]

If someone really wants to save money while learning to fly, try this:

I found a good Flight Simulator for the Aircraft you will learn on was a great help.

 

It helps you become familiar with the cockpit layout, you can practice radio calls, orientate in the flight circuit and it gives you the basic feel for throttle and joystick inputs.

 

I did my first solo at 8 hours training, not because of my talent but the fact that I had practiced so much on the simulator and could focus on flying the aircraft rather than thinking where things were in the cockpit.

[mnewbery]

9. Discover house has no furniture and no family living in it any more

[Jerry_Atrick]

Or the locks have changed and your now ex-best mate, Davo, sleeps where you used to...