Buying aircraft- 80 % / 100 % use case ?

[NT5224]

anyone like Zenith 601s ?

 

One constraint with 601s. Size.

 

If you're a big bloke or a tall lean bloke you might struggle to force an entry and wont be comfortable on a multi-hour flight, even without a passenger.

 

Be sure to try before you buy.

 

Alan

[skippydiesel]

RF guy - have replied to your communique - have been having issues with getting through so hope you received my response

[RFguy]

buying a 2nd hand aircraft from 1000km + seems to be a big job. still heading down a J170D/230D direction for the moment. Budget will stretch in a few years .

 

*** Are there regional people available who can do the chasing and do diligence for you, for a price ?

[skippydiesel]

buying a 2nd hand aircraft from 1000km + seems to be a big job. still heading down a J170D/230D direction for the moment. Budget will stretch in a few years .

 

*** Are there regional people available who can do the chasing and do diligence for you, for a price ?

I know its hard at the moment but dont be in any sort of a hurry, do not fixate on any one aircraft and try and do or be part of, your own in depth inspection.

 

My recent experience:

 

I was so keen I would almost have purchased without an inspection.

Did hours of research into the aircraft type.

Found & checked out several other pilots experience of type.

Got comments on the sale aircraft from those who supposedly knew of it.

Came the day - I spent several hours checking as much as I could of the aircraft - all good!

THEN came the TIF with local acrobatics champ in command.

What with CO/exhaust poisoning, rough running engine/prop, feeling sick as a dog, heavy controls (at least to me) I decided to pass.

Very disappointing but the right decision.

[gibby]

Your budget will be a big factor in what's the best aircraft for you mission, if buying a kit aircraft it will generally take three time longer to build than you intend and by the time your finished will also cost more than initially budgeted for.

If you have your RPL there's plenty of good well priced small GA aircraft for sale that I wouldn't discount

[ClintonB]

Cessna works well, 172 or 182 with long range tanks. Load good, space good (in the 182) speed 120kts is decent normally. Sids is biggest downside.

I use a farm strip at moment which is unimproved and works with big wheels 8" and no spats. Pretty hard to break undercarriage, I have tried?, not deliberately.

[Blueadventures]

buying a 2nd hand aircraft from 1000km + seems to be a big job. still heading down a J170D/230D direction for the moment. Budget will stretch in a few years .

 

*** Are there regional people available who can do the chasing and do diligence for you, for a price ?

You could consider using a first aircraft to get experience and hours in then sell and maybe kit build during that time or upgrade. Building will suck up your time but you can spread your time. Fly good weather build in poor weather. Also you will have a hangar or hangar space sorted. Hangar is a much over looked expense or need. (Need a house for the plane, there not an item to leave in the open). If you go down that track you might purchase a well valued aircraft with a great low hours engine and that engine could be fitted to a kit build and sell off the hull. Maybe a means to an end. I was looking at doing that and then picked up a new acquired kit being sold. A mate was lucky enough to do similar with a finished kit and zero time Rotax 80 hp.

[RFguy]

thanks everybody for writing, all useful.

 

Yeah buying a used aircraft that sure takes alot of research and checking. And when said aircraft is 1000-1500 km away, not unlikely, that's a week of work that gets put aside for a maybe....

Hence my question about having a paid person to do a step-1 examination , before getting to step-2 and going and looking at it myself.

 

Fortunately, I have a few things to do and get out of the way before I buy, so this enforces a great deal of research and mind-changing (not mind altering) .

 

Might start with a smaller aircraft as I find my feet. IE not the full mission spec.

 

How much regional airstrip MOGAS-98 is there out there ? seems like a good rotax case in the more remote regions if you test the fuel before you use it. I've read all the chat here about the pros and cons.

[Blueadventures]

Plan on no 98. Need a servo. Rather than 98 I stick to 95 only. AvGas is ok for Rotax just aquatint yourself with Rotax instructions.

 

Every appraisal inspection could cost $500. But well worth it if it identifies a problem, you don’t need surprises after buying an aircraft.

[skippydiesel]

Your budget will be a big factor in what's the best aircraft for you mission, if buying a kit aircraft it will generally take three time longer to build than you intend and by the time your finished will also cost more than initially budgeted for.

If you have your RPL there's plenty of good well priced small GA aircraft for sale that I wouldn't discount

 

Have to strongly disagree - Your advice may be good for a traditional plans built or "flat pack" delivered aircraft but is out of date for composite types.

 

ATEC aircraft come as very advanced kits. Assuming good organisational/planning skills (everything needed to hand) some basic understanding of 12 volt electrical systems and automotive style plumbing - I would guess delivery to flying condition 3-4 weeks at most.

Cost blow outs will be down to planning failures .

[skippydiesel]

Plan on no 98. Need a servo. Rather than 98 I stick to 95 only. AvGas is ok for Rotax just aquatint yourself with Rotax instructions.

 

Every appraisal inspection could cost $500. But well worth it if it identifies a problem, you don’t need surprises after buying an aircraft.

 

Blueadventure - a lot of servos have moved to 98, deleted 95 and still serve 91. (Most if not all servos in my area have moved in this direction) If you are dead set on 95 - be warned it can be a little problematic to find.

 

The Rotax 912/914 range will happily burn both 98 or 95 without apparent differences in performance. If ULP not available, do not hesitate to use AvGas . Keep its use to an absolute minimum and no negative issues will arise.

[Kyle Communications]

At that build speed and level of factory completion it wouldnt be able to be a 19 rego it would be a E rego.....The amateur built category here is still the same as FAA 51% rule

[NT5224]

thanks everybody for writing, all useful.

 

Yeah buying a used aircraft that sure takes alot of research and checking. And when said aircraft is 1000-1500 km away, not unlikely, that's a week of work that gets put aside for a maybe....

Hence my question about having a paid person to do a step-1 examination , before getting to step-2 and going and looking at it myself.

 

Fortunately, I have a few things to do and get out of the way before I buy, so this enforces a great deal of research and mind-changing (not mind altering) .

 

Might start with a smaller aircraft as I find my feet. IE not the full mission spec.

 

How much regional airstrip MOGAS-98 is there out there ? seems like a good rotax case in the more remote regions if you test the fuel before you use it. I've read all the chat here about the pros and cons.

 

 

Hi RF.

 

What you have suggested is the normal way of buying an aircraft regardless of COVID.

 

Contact a LAME (or RAA equivalent) based close to where the aircraft you are interested to buy is kept. Ask them to visit and undertake a pre-purchase inspection report for you. This will cost you a few hundred bucks, but is a necessary investment.

 

The LAME should not be the regular maintainer of the aircraft, but an independent party.

 

This report will let you know whether it is worth spending time and money visiting the aircraft and maybe going for a fly.

 

But as others have said best pick an aircraft type you are already familiar with and have flown. Individual aircraft are all slightly different so its important that you actually fly in the one you intend to purchase to feel its 'mannerisms', however you need to know you are buying an aircraft type that suits your needs.

 

Buying an aircraft is always a bit of a gamble but a whole lot of fun! But remember the purchase price is only the start.....?

 

Good luck

 

Alan

[RFguy]

Thanks Alan. All good advice.

 

Now, Mark, if in fact the factory didn't spend long building it at all, surely if the factory spent 49 hours making the kit, and the builder spends 51 hours finishing the kit, than meets the 51 % ?

 

You guys are going to have a ball (or get bored) following my journey.

[RFguy]

 

I am surprised how few 912ILS fuel injector motors there are used- seems a no brainer-15-20% fuel economy improvement, and you will get the money back after 300 hours of flying.

g

Actually I got the official pricing today in the 912IS. it is going to be a difference of about 5000 litres of MOGAS fuel... the diff is going to be about 2500 hours of flying to re-coup. proportionally less for AVGAS

So, now I can see why it is not a popular choice.

[onetrack]

Anything built in Europe has huge, hidden "European taxes" associated with it. I'm sure anytime we buy European, we're financing the Europeans pensions on a huge scale.

I see no reason to not support locally made. We have a very good local light aircraft industry, Jabiru has worldwide respect, and the beauty of buying local, is not only does your money stay here, you can get prompt product support.

[RFguy]

agreed.

I believe I can build a low cost, sophisticated online engine monitoring system for the Jab engine . 10x more useful than the ubiquitous CHT EGT.

 

And then we would get a reliable option and solution.

 

If I can get Jabiru to play ball and be interested in the concept, that's required also. Because to have this work, it needs to be on alot of machines to get the data.

And if you cannot get the co operation of the vendor, then why bother ?

 

Everything I read about Jabiru management style suggests Jabiru would not be interested,

 

so I don't know how to support an Aussie company even if I try, based on what I read and hear.

 

It probably takes demonstrating the result, and then have someone with their ear to talk to Mr Jab. I dunno.

 

after market ? As for being a 'mod' and by the book , mods etc for 24- aircraft. Well anything that improves reliability and safety is usually an easy sell to regulators.

If for the most part it was non invasive, that would make it a low bar to get approved

 

But if the MFR is not onboard- then by the book you cant do it !

 

Unless you work with the regulator who then reads the riot act to Jabiru and says "YOU MUST APPROVE THIS"

 

I dunno how many precedents of that there are.

[RFguy]

and don't get me wrong. I want to help Jabiru on this, their vision is commendable. but the old "lead a horse to water " proverb applies.

The whole Jab engine community would benefit.

[SSCBD]

Have a look at flybox

http://www.flyboxavionics.it/vigilus-aero.html

[RFguy]

flybox - ROFL. nice but, no..... that's primitive ye-olde. belongs in the 1800s

 

example : You can deduce what the exhaust valves and seats are doing by looking at the shape and spectrum of the exhaust gas pressure pulse.

Edited August 27, 2020 by RFguy

[Kyle Communications]

No I think Glen you will find the 51% is not calculated like that

[RFguy]

Mark, I would agree my example was flippant. I'll clearly need to read the FAA docs. yeah I understand the FAA etc sit down with the supplies and discuss it. they cant fudge it .

[skippydiesel]

Mark, I would agree my example was flippant. I'll clearly need to read the FAA docs. yeah I understand the FAA etc sit down with the supplies and discuss it. they cant fudge it .

 

Take care that you do not "rock the boat" unnecessarily with the resultant (bullet through own foot"

 

Always best to know the answer, befor posing the question.

[Kyle Communications]

well a savannah kit is definately a 51% build...so is the RANS...couldnt tell you about plastic ones that come in large pieces but certainly the alu ones that are in large parts end up as E24. The WAC Spirit for example

[M61A1]

anyone like Zenith 601s ?

I have the older 601HD with a 912 UL (80 HP). It has quite a thick wing section, very much like the Savannahs and 701s and none of the later structural concerns. It's not particularly fast, but is gets in and out of short , rough strips with relative ease. They aren't particularly attractive looking, but it does the job for me and the price was right.

It gets a solid 90kts at MTOW on a crappy day and around 100kts in perfect conditions on 80HP. I know of others with 100HP and they don't go any quicker. I think that wing is on the top end of it's efficiency at that speed. I'm about 5'8" and the cockpit is reasonably roomy. I have a sunshade which I would consider a necessity. Because of the deep wing section I can fit a full jerrycan in each wing locker and a large luggage space behind the cockpit, although I can only carry 8kg in that with pax and be within CoG limits with zero fuel. I have about 250kg of useful load at 544kg MTOW. I converted mine to taildragger config also, so that it would handle rough field work better. The nosedragger version gear seemed very closely spaced, which I didn't think would be great for rough field work.

Solo I can put a large pack in the pax seat, more than 40 litres of fuel in each wing locker (65 litre main tank) plus a tool kit and hiking stretcher with my pop up tent behind me and still be under MTOW.

Because of the thin metal skin it is quite "drummy", but a good headset fixes that.

The 601 XLs supposedly had some issues with the wings, but apparently this has been rectified with a mod. I can't tell you much about them except that they are definitely faster, I wouldn't know about short/rough field performance, but the fuselage appears virtually identical to the HD model with the exception of the canopy.

 

It will all depend on what you want to do and what appeals to you. Some of the flash Euro stuff looks great and goes fast, but make sure you look at VA speeds, many of them are severely limited in turbulence, which is nearly every day in QLD. Most are also only good for well maintained strips, and an off airport landing will often see damage.

The Jab may well do what you want, and they are reasonably priced, but you need to work out what you want, what you are willing to compromise on and what you aren't.

I bought mine as a fixer upper and it doesn't owe me much. It's actually grown on me.

I also look at the idea that I spent a bit more than $200 per knot. An acquaintance has a much faster aircraft and spent about $500 per knot and a flash Euro machine will be well over $1000 per knot. The resale value of my HD is not particularly high, but I've flown over 400 hours in two years for minimal cost. Anything I break on it is easily fabricated and replaced too.

 

Have a good hard think about what you want flying to be for you.