Rotax 912 pricing

[turboplanner]

On 09/11/2020 at 9:06 PM, skippydiesel said:

Friend - your naivety is breathtaking to think that somehow the market will dictate in all situations. Commercial history is full of suppliers that dictate retail price (check out De Beers) - you just have to have a commodity that is sufficiently in demand that the retailers will agree to the suppliers terms.

We're in Australia and subject to the Competition & Consumer Act 2010

The supplier (manufacturer) cannot set a minimum sell price in Australia without risking massive fines. Dealers frequently sell at reduced margin and even below Dealer Net cost if they are temporarily going after market share, or need to move stock to avoid floor plan charges.

 

Manufacturers on the international scene can strategically price their products to what the market will bear. The best in the world, by far, at this are the Japanese where a product sold in Paupua New Guinea may cost only 20% of the same product in Australia. The end result of that is we are subsidising PNG buyers, but they can afford to buy new product, so the volume increases, the Walton's principle takes over and our price becomes cheaper because of the higher volume.

 

People who bypass Australian distributors are usually their own worst enemy. The overseas price looks greate up front, but the Manufacturer may be selling a particular variant for Australia with different specifications, different sub-assemblies, and sometimes different direction of rotation. Get past that and there's no way you can even get close to the volume rates the manufacturer gets for shiiping. At times I've sent trucks to the US for specialised body work, shipped them back on the bulk routes to Japan and done it again to Australia, and still finished up with a viable product. I've also handled about a thousand phone enquiries for non wearing parts from people who bought an engine only to find it doesn't fit.

 

I've actually set a marketing policy that produced huge sales volume, based on the local dealer being able to make his full margin and this being willing to do minor repairs at cost, supply parts on Sundays etc.

 

Then, as we have seen in the last few post engines aren't just engines. Sometimes you have to spend hours trying to find out exactly what sub assemblies come with the engine.

[Kyle Communications]

Rotax gearbox needs checks and possibly a overhaul every 1000 hrs dont forget that

 

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, Kyle Communications said:

Rotax gearbox needs checks and possibly a overhaul every 1000 hrs dont forget that

 

If you have been using ULP , the 1000 hrs is just a check - sure you will replace oils seals & may be some minor components (shims if required) but overhaul ? very very unlikely.

[Kyle Communications]

Depends on what you find in the check...if you got a 12kg airmaster hanging off the front I think it would need a overhaul , the dogs  would be very worn 🙂

 

[IBob]

Back before I bought my Rotax, I came across some comments from a respected Australian Rotax guru, to the effect that a lot of Rotax damage was the result of poor starting, and a lot of poor starting on some aircraft was due to there being no separate negative cable, just the chassis of the aircraft.

 

The newer Rotax 912 with the improved start ignition retard gives much easier starting.

Add good sized battery cables, positive and negative, a healthy battery and a reasonably light prop (mine is Bolly 3 blade), and the starts are generally clean.

Pull down to approx 1500RPM while switching off the mags in rapid sequence, and the stops are pretty good too.

[RFguy]

Agent recommends at least disassembly and checkout at 1000h on gearbox.  Rotax is excellent value for money IMO . 35 grand / 2000 = $17.50 per hour.  Admittidly some people will never fly > 500 hours. yes, higher cost for them per hour. (putting aside good resale options)   great for schools that do lots  of hours and there is scant  care for the engine like an owner would.

 

[turboplanner]

6 minutes ago, RFguy said:

Agent recommends at least disassembly and checkout at 1000h on gearbox.  Rotax is excellent value for money IMO . 35 grand / 2000 = $17.50 per hour.  Admittidly some people will never fly > 500 hours. yes, higher cost for them per hour. (putting aside good resale options)   great for schools that do lots  of hours and there is scant  care for the engine like an owner would.

 

Good to see someone thinking through total cost of life. It's not the upfront price its the cost from the time you buy it to the time you sell it, and the calculation includes how much you get for it.

 

[skippydiesel]

13 minutes ago, RFguy said:

................................... Rotax is excellent value for money IMO . 35 grand / 2000 = $17.50 per hour.  Admittidly some people will never fly > 500 hours. yes, higher cost for them per hour. (putting aside good resale options)   

 

Sooooo true!!😊

 

Why put the resale to one side ? - Rotax motivated aircraft usually have excellent resale.

[danny_galaga]

On 09/11/2020 at 8:06 PM, skippydiesel said:

Friend - your naivety is breathtaking to think that somehow the market will dictate in all situations. Commercial history is full of suppliers that dictate retail price (check out De Beers) - you just have to have a commodity that is sufficiently in demand that the retailers will agree to the suppliers terms.

Buddy,

 

We are almost saying the same thing. Just that what you perceive as sinister, I perceive as just normal business. Not everything in the world is a conspiracy...

[skippydiesel]

10 hours ago, danny_galaga said:

Buddy,

 

We are almost saying the same thing. Just that what you perceive as sinister, I perceive as just normal business. Not everything in the world is a conspiracy...

Sinister? - hardly & of course its business, normal? - well yes & no.

The normal expectation of the market place is that competition will take place. Of course this requires that effective competition exists.

No offence intended but Rotax 9 range has no real competitors. Rotax knows this and is taking full advantage. This strategy is to be expected BUT has a potential down side - if the price is too high, it create an environments that will encourage others to invest (competitors). So its a bit of a knife edge balancing act , where the supplier must continually assess how much the customer will pay or turn away  and consider inferior products and at the same time not force/create a "hot house" environment where other viable competitors will be encouraged  (by the potential rewards) to invest in a competitive engine. 

Ultimately Rotax 9 will loose its market position, however this may have more to do with technological change (electrics ?) than an effective competitor springing up

[danny_galaga]

There are a number of competitors to the Rotax 912 now. Jabiru and a Belgian company (name escapes me) to name two. Therefore there is competition and therefore pressure on Rotax to keep their pencil sharp. Buy whichever motor takes your fancy.

[onetrack]

Danny - UL Power is perhaps the engine company you were thinking of? The subtle potential problem with UL Power engines is their quite low CHT limit - 180°C.

 

As with all European products, they probably work just fine in European weather conditions - but in Australia, our harsher climate would have to see this limit tested regularly in Summer.

 

https://www.kitplanes.com/the-new-old-aero-engine/

 

I have yet to see any European-origin engine or product that is "economic". Every single European-origin product I have ever been involved with, seems to come with added major cost burdens.

I'm convinced anyone who buys a European product is effectively subsidising the extensive welfare and generous pensions of the major European states.

I see no reason not buy local, where your product has local design, local support, and employs Australians.

Edited November 25, 2020 by onetrack

[danny_galaga]

Certainly shows that we have a choice. Yes, I think it is UL. I know someone who has over 300 hours on his now. Pretty sure it has been handling a range of conditions just fine.

[facthunter]

What happened to the D motor and the Werner radial?  UL seems like a quality thing . Max CHTemps are usually dictated by heat treatment figures. Maybe they are just being conservative. Max temps of 235 C  are where P&W run as I recall but I wouldn't like to see them up there often. Normally if the temps are moving into high temps get them before they get there rather than overshoot. Nev

[skippydiesel]

5 hours ago, danny_galaga said:

There are a number of competitors to the Rotax 912 now. Jabiru and a Belgian company (name escapes me) to name two. Therefore there is competition and therefore pressure on Rotax to keep their pencil sharp. Buy whichever motor takes your fancy.

Don't want to get /start a debate - but as I said no real competition 😊

[waraton]

Here's another rotax 912 related question, what product is used for spark plug heat transfer paste and where do you buy it ???

[skippydiesel]

I am pretty sure you can get it through Bert Flood but just try Google and you will find lots of options , especially on the Rotax Forum and other web sites where Rotax engines are discussed at length

[Blueadventures]

1 hour ago, waraton said:

Here's another rotax 912 related question, what product is used for spark plug heat transfer paste and where do you buy it ???

Hi Waraton 

 

This is where I got a tube 10 years ago.

 

The correct stuff that Floods put on the plugs when you buy plugs through them.  Let me know if any details have changed and I'll up date my info file of bits and pieces.  Cheers Mike

 

SILCHEM INTERNATIONAL PTY LTD [mailto:[email protected]]

Subject: Re: Silicone paste P12


Just to confirm the 20 ml tubes of Paste P12 are $33 @ delivered.
 

[waraton]

Thanks Skippy, Rotax forum has U.S. products, was hoping for a locally available item (ie Repco etc) so I am not paying Rotax prices with postage on top. 

 

Hi Mike, SILCHEM are closed permanently apparently.

[Downunder]

30 minutes ago, waraton said:

Thanks Skippy, Rotax forum has U.S. products, was hoping for a locally available item (ie Repco etc) so I am not paying Rotax prices with postage on top. 

 

Hi Mike, SILCHEM are closed permanently apparently.

https://www.ebay.com.au/p/610820399

[Kyle Communications]

Its the same stuff as used for transistor heatsinks..go to Jaycar or altronics and get the white heastsink silcone paste

 

[RFguy]

wow then I have tons of it, Mark  :-) . What's the purpose- to get heat out of the plug into the water cooled heads ?

[skippydiesel]

Fairly sure that when I Googled this, JayCar heat sink past was one of the many suggestions

[Downunder]

Wacker P12 is what Rotax use..... and sell at an ungodly price.

This has heat transfer rate of 0.81W/mK.

For other replacement pastes, you should reference this number.

 

And remember, the silicone heat transfer paste is NOT electrically conductive (no doubt you could find some that are) so keep the plug washer and seat area free from any paste.

 

[RFguy]

And remember
YOU ONLY NEED a film of it ..

 

It is designed to fill in the gaps between the metal contact area.

IE the thread surfaces are not perfectly flat you will see under a microscope- the paste is designed to fill those gaps and bumps.

 

It is not designed to conduct heat over thick slabs of it.