The Unforgiving (née Impossible) Turn.

[Wirraway]

In my training in  a Jab 170C, just after take off the instructor closed the throttle.

I wasn't expecting it so close to the ground to be honest, but I lowered the nose, went into a tight turn, instructor says tighter still, then rudder only to straighten, and we were over the threshhold safely.

When I asked how high we were, "about 250 feet" was the response.

 

However, he did  warn against practising that on my own.
I have heard of Jabs being turned around much lower.
 

But from much more experienced pilots, "....it depends on the aircraft, would never attempt anything like that in a Cessna 172..."

 

I am a new pilot, make no claim to being a good pilot, but from all I have read, managing speed and using rudder are vital in avoiding stalls and spins.
Read an article from the U.S. recently, (there may well have been a link to it from this forum), that the first thing to do is push the nose down, then start working out what has happened, maintaing speed is of the essence.

 

 

 

 

[Garfly]

 

 

https://airfactsjournal.com/2020/12/an-engineering-approach-to-the-impossible-turn/?trk_msg=VDMFISJ1CJ4KR6290F711ER3F8&trk_contact=TP0NO766QS9G20UOM7VT2QLI2S&trk_sid=RGE700OAQH8CGDDFS2UIV20UJS&utm_source=listrak&utm_medium=Email&utm_term=READ+MORE&utm_campaign=F20124A&utm_content=Christmas+Flying+Stories+%2b+An+Incredible+Alaska+Trip

[Old Koreelah]

I’ve done a few AFATO practices at altitude to see how much height I’d lose in the turn.

After takeoff from runway 14, the idea is to build up airspeed in ground effect; if things go quiet in this phase there is room to land ahead.

After hitting 70kt the idea is to climb steeply to get to about 300ft, from which it should be possible to turn 100 Degrees to make 24 cross strip. Drifting to the left (crosswind permitting) would be prudent to facilitate the turn.

After about 500ft it should be possible to do the turn back to 32; I’m already well to the left of the runway centre-line ready to turn.

[Old Koreelah]

Tragic reminder:

 

 

[SSCBD]

This is all guess work. IT always depends on conditions and aircraft type,  eg wind / no wind / gusts / turbulence from trees hangars etc -  where you are eg terrain conditions at the end of the runway -- what you are in - aircraft type  - also what weight and height you are at. AND how skilled or game you are to die. 

No one can give you an answer because it will usually happen when you are in dead mans curve anyway (forgive me the chopper pilots term).

Remember when the noise stops along the runway -  how long will the shock of - Jesus Christ last before you really act and think it through. How much airspeed (ENERGY) has been lost 5 - 10 kts in that time really.  

The only answer is to get the wheels one foot off the ground in a paddock and you should be able to walk away. 

This is just a few things to think about when it happens.   

Stop this guess work it will kill you. 

[onetrack]

I'm not all that sure about how far into the "impossible turn", the pilot at Serpentine was. He crashed just to the right of the runway, and not far from the end of it. 

 

I'm only guessing that he wasn't too far above Vmc when the engine failed, and the rapid loss of thrust led to a stall, very quickly. There would be no time to deliberate on landing area choices.

 

The Dyn-Aero stall characteristics could also have played a big part in this, too. The specifications state a stall speed of 47 kts.

 

The Dyn-Aero is a very light "plastic fantastic" with a high top speed performance, but obviously with low-speed control inability. It's definitely not a STOL aircraft.

 

There were also some sharp wind gusts around yesterday afternoon. A gust may have hit him at the most inopportune moment.

 

 

[Garfly]

For those with the time, here is an entire 70' video about EFATO:

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

You could also die from being too conservative...  such as by landing straight ahead when there were no good options.

[facthunter]

THIS has been thrashed to death before. Nothing changes. The facts remain the same.. Nev 

[turboplanner]

10 hours ago, facthunter said:

THIS has been thrashed to death before. Nothing changes. The facts remain the same.. Nev 

There's always someone who reads something into something that someone else has assumed, and before you know it the calculations come out showing that it's a breeze/there's plenty of time, I measured it/sure that's true, but not in my aircraft because it can make the turn, I've done it 50 times, and their the ones I can quickly remember.

[rgmwa]

I’ve practised it at height enough to know that I can do it pretty well …. at height when I’m practising.

[facthunter]

Good idea to practice at height but you don't get the low flying illusions or do a downwind landing. If you hesitate commencing the turn you seriously reduce your chances. Nev

[rgmwa]

Correct Nev. All I’ve proved is that I can do it under certain conditions unrelated to a reall emergency. 

[turboplanner]

3 minutes ago, rgmwa said:

at height when I’m practising.

More engine failures occur between lift off and the crosswind turn at 500, so you're low and doing the EFATO drill; nose down FMS pick a spot between two factories, and while you're doing that you have to pitch the aircraft around 6 degrees and make it glide for a short time.

 

If you are deliberately practising, if the instructor says, "we'll do a few EFATOs today", you know it's coming, you practiced the checklist, so your reaction time will be about 50/100 second to get on the yoke. At a country strip during a perfect long flight, if the engine just cuts you'll add 3 to 5 seconds, and even sometimes 15 to 20 if you think "Why is this happening", open the throttle, pump it and do the things we do when an emergency comes out of left field. If you've trained your subconscious over and over again, the hands should be shooting out before you even think about it, so that's one way to avoid the delay.

 

I've done some silly things when caught by surprise, but avoided accidents when the subconscious avoided them for me.

[facthunter]

You can practice course reversals too.  The unknown is how you'll do it under pressure. Nev

[sfGnome]

20 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

If you are deliberately practising, if the instructor says, "we'll do a few EFATOs today", you know it's coming, you practiced the checklist, so your reaction time will be about 50/100 second to get on the yoke.

I’ll never forget my first EFATO practice. I knew it was coming. I’d talked through it with the instructor just before lining up. I’d practiced it in my head many times. And when he cut the throttle, I froze and did absolutely nothing. 😳

[rgmwa]

11 minutes ago, sfGnome said:

I’ll never forget my first EFATO practice. I knew it was coming. I’d talked through it with the instructor just before lining up. I’d practiced it in my head many times. And when he cut the throttle, I froze and did absolutely nothing. 😳

Yes, total confusion the first time. Trying to remember and do everything at once, and achieving very little. It got better though.

[turboplanner]

43 minutes ago, sfGnome said:

I’ll never forget my first EFATO practice. I knew it was coming. I’d talked through it with the instructor just before lining up. I’d practiced it in my head many times. And when he cut the throttle, I froze and did absolutely nothing. 😳

That can happen; happens in war. I'm guessing the second, third, fourth etc were OK?

 

[facthunter]

There's a  decision  to be made there and often  the instinct to turn back over rides what's been taught, To reach the "safety " of  the aerodrome has been drummed into you. When have you ever done a tailwind landing of about 10 knots in your U/L?  Chances are your first one under pressure won't go well.Nev

[kgwilson]

There are so many articles and video clips on the "Impossible Turn" and how it can be achieved but nowhere near as many on why it should not be attempted. Like Yenn I have simulated it at height & did not notice much height loss at all but I am not even going to try at 500 feet AGL. Pilots both inexperienced and very highly experienced keep getting killed trying the manoeuvre so there is a good reason for the name. Whether is is houses or trees or water in front within 30 degrees of centre I am going down it that arc, end of story. All I have to think about is stall speed and landing spot/impact.

[facthunter]

Turn into  the wind if all other factors are equal.. Less Kinetic energy to deal with and don't lose control.  Nev

[Yenn]

I would not attempt a reversal turn with engine failure at my home strip. There are paddocks with wire fences ahead of me, but if I achieve the 180 deg turn I then have to contend with a downwind landing on a downslope. Even landing with a head wind that downslope often extends the float distance.

[Thruster88]

Pilots and unfortunately their passengers die attempting the impossible turn because they STALL THE AIRCRAFT. while it may not be possible to return to the runway in some aircraft in others it is a viable option. Pilots also stall aircraft flying straight ahead following engine failure 

 

Reading emergency engine failure check lists for light GA aircraft there is limited or no advice to maintain best glide speed. It should be every second item on the list and said out loud by student pilots. Example

 

Engine failure on initial climb.

Best glide speed

Boost pump on

Best glide speed

Change tanks

Best glide speed

Carb heat on

Best glide speed

Mags left right both 

Best glide speed.

 

Also if a second airspeed indicator stuck up out the top of dash in line of sight like a bogans tacho more people would be saved. Eyes out front and airspeed info at the same time yesssss. Perhaps a line on the airspeed indicator called the line of death would help. Airspeed is life.

[facthunter]

Use stick stall position and energy considerations as well and you won't stall and POWER is an extra control that will reduce height loss if you  do stall. If you know all this then you probably won't stall inadvertently, anyhow. Unintentional stalling must not happen. Nev

[walrus]

9 hours ago, turboplanner said:

More engine failures occur between lift off and the crosswind turn at 500, so you're low and doing the EFATO drill; nose down FMS pick a spot between two factories, and while you're doing that you have to pitch the aircraft around 6 degrees and make it glide for a short time.

 

If you are deliberately practising, if the instructor says, "we'll do a few EFATOs today", you know it's coming, you practiced the checklist, so your reaction time will be about 50/100 second to get on the yoke. At a country strip during a perfect long flight, if the engine just cuts you'll add 3 to 5 seconds, and even sometimes 15 to 20 if you think "Why is this happening", open the throttle, pump it and do the things we do when an emergency comes out of left field. If you've trained your subconscious over and over again, the hands should be shooting out before you even think about it, so that's one way to avoid the delay.

 

I've done some silly things when caught by surprise, but avoided accidents when the subconscious avoided them for me.

 

2 hours ago, Thruster88 said:

Pilots and unfortunately their passengers die attempting the impossible turn because they STALL THE AIRCRAFT. while it may not be possible to return to the runway in some aircraft in others it is a viable option. Pilots also stall aircraft flying straight ahead following engine failure 

 

Reading emergency engine failure check lists for light GA aircraft there is limited or no advice to maintain best glide speed. It should be every second item on the list and said out loud by student pilots. Example

 

Engine failure on initial climb.

Best glide speed

Boost pump on

Best glide speed

Change tanks

Best glide speed

Carb heat on

Best glide speed

Mags left right both 

Best glide speed.

 

Also if a second airspeed indicator stuck up out the top of dash in line of sight like a bogans tacho more people would be saved. Eyes out front and airspeed info at the same time yesssss. Perhaps a line on the airspeed indicator called the line of death would help. Airspeed is life.

You mean TRIM for best glide speed to leave yourself freer to do the rest.