Cherokee Bankstown 3-10-20

[Thruster88]

This could be the end😥😥 for a great little plane that has taught many people to fly. Landing "accident" at bankstown during a private hire, not flying training.

 

[turboplanner]

Hold the nose up in a Cherokee, Elevators for speed, Throttle for altitude (ESTA) let it sink into ground effect, Yoke comes back, back, wheels touch  Yoke back to stomach, and you can do landings that the passengers can't feel.

 

Pont the nose at the ground, lnd nosewheel first and you'll set up oscillation every time. The Cherokke has one of the toughest nose gears in the business but it's like hitting it with a big hammer.

 

First two videos show nose down attempts with consistent failure.    Third video shows how you can throw a Cherokee at the ground nose up and taxi away.

 

 

 

 

[SplitS]

That will buff right out.

[RFguy]

Yes, that plane has been a constant companion in the circuit for me at Cowra. 

[planedriver]

Yea, I saw that at Bankstown Construction Site on Sunday. Still has runways left (just) among all the new building work, Horrified at the extent of it all.

If you have an aircraft that you hire out, there's always more of a chance events like this can happen.

[facthunter]

No matter how fool proof and simple to fly you make them,  fools find ingenious ways to crash them. They called them land-o-matics. when they arrived about 1963 because of ground effect.. Nev

[RFguy]

why was that guy in the last video- (view of 29R)  why did he come in at such a steep bank close to the ground with low airspeed and the crazy flare- attempt to straighten it on to the paved strip  ?

had he run out of  airport boundary space ? sudden gusty wind ?

I would have  said screw the paved strip, if I'm out of height and airspeed, I'm landing in the direction I am facing, the grass will do, whatever is under me.....

Edited October 6, 2020 by RFguy

[turboplanner]

26 minutes ago, RFguy said:

why was that guy in the last video- (view of 29R)  why did he come in at such a steep bank close to the ground with low airspeed and the crazy flare- attempt to straighten it on to the paved strip  ?

had he run out of  airport boundary space ? sudden gusty wind ?

I would have  said screw the paved strip, if I'm out of height and airspeed, I'm landing in the direction I am facing, the grass will do, whatever is under me.....

That was a forced landing at a City Airport, where your coices consist of Golf Courses (Winners) or streets (powerlines, street signs), roofs Cosco is perfect at Morrabbin - big spans to sag when they are hit, or drains as long as you slide along them - a different world to Cowra. Notice that his roll was very small, Cherokee has fantastic brakes.

[kgwilson]

The Cherokee is one of the easiest to land planes I have ever flown. Touch down on the nosewheel and you must go around or the dreaded porpoise will bite hard.

[RFguy]

What makes this aircraft particularly vulnerable to sustained and growing oscillatory porpoising states ?

 

I have never landed on the nosewheel, not in > 100 landings..  I guess there is still time. (The Brumby always  has plenty of elevator on landing,  even in a  main wing stall, and idle power) 

 

I have done a few though where the nose came down a half second after the  mains, or simultaneously, IE like 3 pointers, once  was with a ~ 6 kts tail wind on landing (and next circuit I changed direction)

Edited October 6, 2020 by RFguy

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, RFguy said:

What makes this aircraft particularly vulnerable to sustained and growing oscillatory porpoising states ?

I have never landed on the nosewheel, not in > 100 landings..  I guess there is still time. (The Brumby always  has plenty of elevator on landing,  even in a  main wing stall, and idle power) 

I have done a few though where the nose came down a half second after the  mains, or simultaneously, IE like 3 pointers, once  was with a ~ 6 kts tail wind on landing (and next circuit I changed direction)

It's not particularly vulnerable; you only have to think through what is going to happen if you land a tricycle undercarriage on the nose wheel hard enough to create a bounce. It's pretty much the same as one of the classic crashes of a Sprintcar; bump the rear type of the car in frontof you with your front tyre and the front of the car leaps for the sky pulling the rear a couple of metres off the ground; the rear appears to fall back downwards but before it hits the ground rockets up and over the fron wheels and the car rotates end over end forward in an arc, five metres high, the kinetic energy spent, flops down to earth.

 

[facthunter]

I don't believe the Cherokee is particularly likely to do the oscillations. I'd say a Mooney is worse and a c-182 can do it too. You'd need a lot of very effective damping involved to rule it out. Nosewheel contact will cause a pitch up same as a bounced tailwheel plane rebounding from the mainwheels contact. IF you don't interrupt the cycles they each get a bit worse.. Tri gear landing with some ROD throws the nose down which reduces lift and is anti bounce but can put big loads on the nosewheel if it's not controlled..  Having the correct approach speed is the aim and a "normal" hold off produces a tail down landing avoiding the nosewheel contact every  time.. Aim to bring the stall warning on till you get the hang of it . (Not in gusty or X-wind conditions though). Nev

[RFguy]

Hi Nev, Turbs thanks for the info. 

Well that (porpoising) video is certainly ugly . nose didnt come up at all in the holdoff , heshe just kept flying  flat to the ground. Of course numerous other things might have been happening we don't know about.....

Stall warning would be nice if I had one. Can glance as ASI, its a big dial under my nose. 

In terms of recovery , and assuming a go around is not available because the engine is dead, can't pulling the nose up a little in a controlled fashion bring it back to something controllable ? (assuming airspeed was available to keep the mainfoil flying) I realise that's a hazardous maneouver to recover from a bounce, all though in this case is was a little bounce , not a 5 meter balloon.

 

Edited October 6, 2020 by RFguy

[facthunter]

Yeah, you can pull it out of an oscillation if you judge it (very) correctly. If you are THAT good you wouldn't have got it into one in the first place.

       IF you are floating parallel with and close to the ground and the nose angle is UP a lot, you MUST be close to a stall. If not you would be climbing away (Ballooning) at the angle to the airflow you have.  The last  effort the plane was stalled and a wonder a wing didn't drop. It's a sign of how  "docile" such planes are. Nose high and descending . Where do you think the relative airflow was from. Normal stall is around 14 degrees (to the relative airflow, not the horizon).. Nev

Edited October 6, 2020 by facthunter
more content.

[RFguy]

I would think that an inexperienced aviator would think the oscillations would die down if they just held on. But it requires corrective action. 

And elevator authority varies a alot as the airspeed falls off.  Like too much speed and the flare is very twitchy (I have found) ....

I've had a couple of small bounces where I had one bounce and  I have got the nose back up a bit and got the flare back to controlled and mains down.  But airspeed was slow, it wasnt going to fly off.  in the gusty conditions I have had the nose come up more than I anticipated (during a gust) and it just flew a bit further in a steeper flare an inch from the ground. Instructor says I flew the gusty Xwind landings better than still air. Maybe in still air I have too many choices, and the gusty Xwinds forces some decisions and commitment.

-glen

 

[facthunter]

Bad conditions make you concentrate more because you have to. Some of my "firmer" landings have been in absolutely still air. Nev

[Thruster88]

Tail draggers are the best teacher's,  then you can transition to nose wheel aircraft without fear of breaking the front wheel.

[turboplanner]

There are tens of thousands of student who have learnt to fly on tricycle undercarriage and only a few catastrophic oscillating nosehweel failures like these. They learn to fly, fly all their life and retire. If they learn that the rear wheels are there for landing and the nose wheel is there to hang up in the air for some time until it gently settles in order to steer the aircraft on the ground well below stall speed, they would never point the nose down to land or for some odd reason try to lnd on all four wheels at the same time.

 

The primary advantage of tricycle is single pilot control in high winds, where the nose wheel/main wheels geometry prevents the aircraft weathercocking.

 

However, as simple as that might be there are some instructors who actually teach students to point the nose down and use throttle for speed (like a car) and elevator (nose down more/less) for altitude. We ad a couple of people on this site who pushed that and three peple broke nose gears in a matter of three or four months.

 

I'm not disagreeing with you Thruster because if you learn the right techniques for TW and NW you'll fly both professionally.

 

Having said that, this usually happens to early students when  they're sitting a little too flat after roundout and they sen the end of the runway and jam the nose down to reach the runway, and they do, then get the oscillation and its too late. They're usually at the stage where they haven't really got to know boundary layer and use the wing as a big brake.

 

 

[facthunter]

You will stop faster with brakes but wear them out fast with hard use. Maybe some ex-tail wheelers try to pin the plane on with stick forward and get too much weight on the nosewheel and lose directional control. 

    I've remained a three pointer unless strong winds person, because that's how I started (on very short strips).. Now a days one hardly ever sees a proper 3 pointer on a tailwheel plane. I think they are scared to do them, and you DO spend more time on the strip as you often have to taxi further, 'cause you don't roll far.

Being realistic, the Nosewheel set up is better for most except the roughest strips where it is subject to damage with rocks and rabbit holes. Fly so you don't overload it and don't get lazy and tend to add a bit of speed to make it easier. We all get lazy if we allow ourselves to do so. Nev

[Yenn]

No doubt about it tailwheel flying gives you a better chance of landing properly.

I fly tailwheel with the only nosewheel flying being when I do a flight review. I jump into a plane I heve never flown before and land easily, no problems.

All you need to do is keep the speed under control and keep the nose up. Don't pin the wheels on on a taildragger, just stick to 3 pointing.

[facthunter]

IF all you've ever flown is Tailwheel , converting to tricycle U/C is a non event. . Nev

[Student Pilot]

7 hours ago, facthunter said:

You will stop faster with brakes but wear them out fast with hard use. Maybe some ex-tail wheelers try to pin the plane on with stick forward and get too much weight on the nosewheel and lose directional control. 

    I've remained a three pointer unless strong winds person, because that's how I started (on very short strips).. Now a days one hardly ever sees a proper 3 pointer on a tailwheel plane. I think they are scared to do them, and you DO spend more time on the strip as you often have to taxi further, 'cause you don't roll far.

Being realistic, the Nosewheel set up is better for most except the roughest strips where it is subject to damage with rocks and rabbit holes. Fly so you don't overload it and don't get lazy and tend to add a bit of speed to make it easier. We all get lazy if we allow ourselves to do so. Nev

You can land just as short with a tail low wheeler as a three pointer. Land and roll up to taxiway, no need to land on the end of the strip, pick where you are going to land and land there. A point where you will roll to the taxiway without heavy braking is where I usually land. Why would anybody be scared of doing a 3 point landing? Watch anybody who flies tailwheels for a living, they land tail low wheeler. That's not because they are scared of 3 pointers but usually to spare the tailwheel any grief and extra wear.

[antonts]

On 05/10/2020 at 4:31 PM, Thruster88 said:

This could be the end😥😥 for a great little plane that has taught many people to fly. Landing "accident" at bankstown during a private hire, not flying training.

 

 

and especially funny it was to heard from ATC - "Bankstown is closed due to plane accident, no info for how long" - flying nav exercise somewhere near Goulburn. Lucky they sorted it out in time, opened 11R 11C and we landed as planned, not somewhere in Camden.

 

And next day (Sun 4th) - again! Someone damaged wheel and got stuck, so 29R was "closed due to disabled aircraft", and again I am in the air! But this time they closed only 29R.

 

[antonts]

On 06/10/2020 at 7:12 PM, turboplanner said:

 there are some instructors who actually teach students to point the nose down and use throttle for speed (like a car) and elevator (nose down more/less) for altitude. We ad a couple of people on this site who pushed that and three peple broke nose gears in a matter of three or four months.

 

 

my instructors do it namely this way. Of course not on flare, just on final, up to runway threshold - and afaik no one crashed due to this approach, moreover it significantly stabilizes finals for unexperienced students as it absolutely separates speed and attitude control. Throttle adjusts only speed, stick upkeeps course (landing point) and attitude.

 

[Jase T]

Its not just this guy. USAF report released yesterday on a recent F-35 crash shows 4 porpoises on landng before the flight control system gave up trying to help and the pilot had to punch out as the jet was pointing at the ground in full burner. He had full back stick, the fly by wire was giving full nose down!!!! Will post a video link when its available... Yes there was more to it, wrong auto throttle setting and landing 50kias too fast but it was still a basic porpoise that resulted in the loss of the jet!