Is RPC a good pathway to RPL or even PPL?

[Jeffmel]

Hey guys Im new here. Looking to get a PPL in the end but I think it'd be better to get a RPL first then move towards a PPL slowly. 

 

Then I come across the RPC thing. From what Ive learnt from the internet the  courses for RA-Aus issued RPC use light sport aircraft, while CASA issued RPL ones use general  aviation aircraft, which cost more to buy and fly. Thus RPC cost around $7000 to get and RPL cost $13000, without any endorsement. 

 

So, is it a cost effective way to get my RPC then pay a few hundreds for a conversion, comparing to go straight for RPL?

 

Also, if I just want to take a few family members do a cross country trip, does RPL+nav endors enough? or do I have to get my PPL?

 

Thanks in advance. 

[kgwilson]

RPC is the most cost effective way to learn to fly. Your hours can be credited towards an RPL or PPL. If you get your RPC first & get endorsements such as PAX & XC & your end goal is a PPL, don't bother with the RPL.

[Danny88]

What is the difference between RPL and PPL?

[Jeffmel]

8 hours ago, Danny88 said:

What is the difference between RPL and PPL?

that's what I dont understand. RPL + nav endors seems enough for me, to take my family for an interstate trip. 

[kgwilson]

You can only take 1 passenger with an RPL and the MAUW is 1500 kg. You can only fly solo at night under instruction and you can't exceed 10,000 feet. If you get a class 2 medical then you can take more than 1 passenger. Endorsements are RPFR, RPNA, RPCT & RPCA, (radio, Navs, Controlled aerodrome and Controlled airspace).

 

The RPL was originally created in the UK, US, Canada & NZ to allow ageing pilots to still fly when they may not be able to maintain a Class 2 medical back in the early 2000s but were medically able to drive a car. You could only carry 1 passenger and not fly at night. Simple. The medical requirements allow self certification. 

 

CASA procrastinated for another 10 years and came up with the uniquely Australian RPL with all the dumb rules and you need a heavy truck medical which is almost as complex and difficult to obtain as a class 2.

Edited October 11, 2020 by kgwilson

[440032]

Another consideration for RPC with RAAus, perhaps:

Most RAAus flight schools will be using modern aircraft, anywhere from brand new to not that old.

PPL with a VH flying school will be using old Cessnas and Pipers generally, around 40+ years old. They are robust, reliable and fly well though.

I'll bet no student ever has ever asked the school "how old is this plane" when jumping in to something like a common 172M. "Oh, this is 44 years old this year." Equivalent to a 76 VK Valiant.

[APenNameAndThatA]

9 hours ago, kgwilson said:

You can only take 1 passenger with an RPL and the MAUW is 1500 kg. You can only fly solo at night under instruction and you can't exceed 10,000 feet. If you get a class 2 medical then you can take more than 1 passenger. Endorsements are RPFR, RPNA, RPCT & RPCA, (radio, Navs, Controlled aerodrome and Controlled airspace).

 

The RPL was originally created in the UK, US, Canada & NZ to allow ageing pilots to still fly when they may not be able to maintain a Class 2 medical back in the early 2000s but were medically able to drive a car. You could only carry 1 passenger and not fly at night. Simple. The medical requirements allow self certification. 

 

CASA procrastinated for another 10 years and came up with the uniquely Australian RPL with all the dumb rules and you need a heavy truck medical which is almost as complex and difficult to obtain as a class 2.

I think that you might be mixing up RPL with RPC. RA-Aus give people *certificates* so they can fly LSA's. RPL is a licence, issued by CASA, that allows you to fly a GA aircraft, but still with only one passenger. I think that if things go well, going from RPC, to RPL to PPL will be cheaper than starting with RPL and then going to a PPL. 

[Jeffmel]

7 minutes ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

I think that you might be mixing up RPL with RPC. RA-Aus give people *certificates* so they can fly LSA's. RPL is a licence, issued by CASA, that allows you to fly a GA aircraft, but still with only one passenger. I think that if things go well, going from RPC, to RPL to PPL will be cheaper than starting with RPL and then going to a PPL. 

I think you are correct, RPC training use light aircrafts so it is cheaper than RPL which use old GA from day 1. 

 

In regards to all the other endorsements (radio, Navs, Controlled aerodrome and Controlled airspace), are training towards those in RA-Aus system equivalent with those in CASA system, meaning if I have such endors attached to my RPC, can I have the same endors attached to my RPL while I apply for the conversion?

 

 

[SGM]

30 minutes ago, Jeffmel said:

I think you are correct, RPC training use light aircrafts so it is cheaper than RPL which use old GA from day 1. 

 

In regards to all the other endorsements (radio, Navs, Controlled aerodrome and Controlled airspace), are training towards those in RA-Aus system equivalent with those in CASA system, meaning if I have such endors attached to my RPC, can I have the same endors attached to my RPL while I apply for the conversion?

 

 

Yes, my understanding is eall ndorsements on RPC carry forward to RPL.  I am currently RPC, with PAX and working towards XCountry.  The process convert to RPL (I'm told) is get an ASIC, a Basic Class 2 medical (up to 1 PAX) or Class 2 medical (2+ PAX), fill in a webform, and then when CASA issues a licence you do a type familiarisation flight test in a GA aircraft.

I might go this path because the Jabirus I learnt in aren't available to rent for weekends away, and hence this it opens up more aircraft like a C150 or Tomahawk etc.  !Looking to buy a good one if anyone knows of any!)

[Jeffmel]

2 hours ago, SGM said:

Yes, my understanding is eall ndorsements on RPC carry forward to RPL.  I am currently RPC, with PAX and working towards XCountry.  The process convert to RPL (I'm told) is get an ASIC, a Basic Class 2 medical (up to 1 PAX) or Class 2 medical (2+ PAX), fill in a webform, and then when CASA issues a licence you do a type familiarisation flight test in a GA aircraft.

I might go this path because the Jabirus I learnt in aren't available to rent for weekends away, and hence this it opens up more aircraft like a C150 or Tomahawk etc.  !Looking to buy a good one if anyone knows of any!)

Hey thanks for the info, that's great news. 

 

I am also wondering, once you get your RPL, is it better to do those many endorsements (pax, navigation, etc), or go towards PPL? 

[kgwilson]

4 hours ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

I think that you might be mixing up RPL with RPC. RA-Aus give people *certificates* so they can fly LSA's. RPL is a licence, issued by CASA, that allows you to fly a GA aircraft, but still with only one passenger. I think that if things go well, going from RPC, to RPL to PPL will be cheaper than starting with RPL and then going to a PPL. 

Not at all. The way CASA have created the RPL, it is effectively an RPC but a CASA licence. In my opinion a waste of time as all your RPC time and endorsements (partially) can be cross credited towards a PPL. The RPL is just a way to fly GA aircraft the same way as you would fly a RA aircraft other than CTR endorsements. If you train for an RPC in CTR you can fly solo there but you still need a Class 2. If the intent is to get your PPL you may as well get your RPC as it will cost a lot less and you will fly modern aircraft & then just do the extras for the PPL at the higher cost in old dungas.

[APenNameAndThatA]

16 hours ago, kgwilson said:

Not at all. The way CASA have created the RPL, it is effectively an RPC but a CASA licence. In my opinion a waste of time as all your RPC time and endorsements (partially) can be cross credited towards a PPL. The RPL is just a way to fly GA aircraft the same way as you would fly a RA aircraft other than CTR endorsements. If you train for an RPC in CTR you can fly solo there but you still need a Class 2. If the intent is to get your PPL you may as well get your RPC as it will cost a lot less and you will fly modern aircraft & then just do the extras for the PPL at the higher cost in old dungas.

That was me being wrong. But if you have a Class 1 or Class 2 medical, you can fly above 10 000 ft

[kgwilson]

1 minute ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

That was me being wrong. But if you have a Class 1 or Class 2 medical, you can fly above 10 000 ft

Correct & then you may as well skip the RPL & go straight to PPL from RPC.

[Jeffmel]

4 hours ago, kgwilson said:

Correct & then you may as well skip the RPL & go straight to PPL from RPC.

 

But it does not cost much to convert a RPC to RPL, maybe an assessment fee , but by doing so I will be able to use bigger planes, meaning more choices when renting, and take more pax with me. 

 

 

[kgwilson]

You can only take 1 passenger with RPL, same as RPC. Yes bigger aircraft but usually 40 or more years old and twice as much to hire.

 

 

[Bosi72]

Foxbat dual ~$320ph, C152 dual ~$350ph, Difference ~$30

Minimum 40hrs for PPL, so $30x40=$1200.

 

 

* prices from learntofly and rvac websites.

[kgwilson]

That Foxbat is $100 ph overpriced. I'd go somewhere else. There are plenty of RA schools that charge $200 to $220 ph. Why pay $350 for a 50 year old aircraft with pretty poor performance when you can pay $220.00 for a <10 year old aircraft and have all your hours credited towards a PPL.

[Bosi72]

1 hour ago, kgwilson said:

That Foxbat is $100 ph overpriced. I'd go somewhere else. There are plenty of RA schools that charge $200 to $220 ph. Why pay $350 for a 50 year old aircraft with pretty poor performance when you can pay $220.00 for a <10 year old aircraft and have all your hours credited towards a PPL.

Can you please point me to the website or school which charges $220ph for DUAL  lessons with instructor. Thanks

[Deceiver]

39 minutes ago, Bosi72 said:

Can you please point me to the website or school which charges $220ph for DUAL  lessons with instructor. Thanks

My school charges $220ph dual in a J120. 🙂 

[Bosi72]

1 hour ago, Deceiver said:

My school charges $220ph dual in a J120. 🙂 

👍

another example that everything in Melbourne is expensive than elsewhere..

Cheers

Edited October 14, 2020 by Bosi72

[BlurE]

15 hours ago, kgwilson said:

You can only take 1 passenger with RPL, same as RPC. Yes bigger aircraft but usually 40 or more years old and twice as much to hire.

 

 

With a class2 medical I think you can take up to 5 PAX on an RPL, provided you are under 1500kg MTOW (good luck)

Edited October 14, 2020 by BlurE

[poteroo]

5 hours ago, Bosi72 said:

Can you please point me to the website or school which charges $220ph for DUAL  lessons with instructor. Thanks

I charge out @ $220/hr Hobbs for dual.  The aircraft is a near new Brumby R610 high wing fitted with most everything. We are located on a regional airport with landing fees of $11/day and our hangars cost $11/m2 lease cost annually. It is not a cheap location!  I invoice by about 1 week ín arrears',  and don't think that I could afford to charge any less.    Happy days,

[Jeffmel]

4 hours ago, Bosi72 said:

👍

another example that everything in Melbourne is expensive than elsewhere..

Cheers

the Point Cook Flying Club have J120 for hire $120/hr, good place to accumulate my solo hour. a nearby regional flying school charges $265 for dual on a TECNAM Eaglet. I think it will be a good place to get my PPL?

[MattP]

One of the other things to consider when thinking about cost effectiveness of your training is that you will have different requirements / a learning style that suits you and that just because one place is cheaper than the other doesn't mean it will be more cost effective or cheaper in the long run. There's plenty of forum posts / topics on the internet for you to google on this, but one thing that you can't under emphasise is the requirement for you to feel comfortable and able to learn effectively with your instructor and chosen school / club. I have burned a lot of money and hours in the past on cheapest vs best value for money and whilst I'm grateful that the experience has taught me what I don't want or won't tolerate in a school / instructor, I wish I could have done it more cheaply.

 

The answer on RPC and PPL is hard as it depends on what you want to do, if all you want is to fly and just burn holes in the sky (metaphorically) on lazy Sunday afternoons OCTA, or even travel interstate, then RPC will be more than enough for you. As you develop, you will get a feel for what you might want or not want to do next, IE NVFR, IFR, flying overseas (USA, Europe etc) then a PPL will be the next step. With that comes more complexity in admin (medical, more exams etc) and some additional components not taught at RPC level (CTA, basic instrument flight and radio navigation ) but more responsibility and flexibility in terms of passengers and conditions. Good news is the hours all count and you're flying! Once you have both, you also can take your pick dependent on what suits your flying needs.

 

Again, the benefits of learning in GA and then going RAA at a later date or vice versa are widely debated and you'll find no shortage of opinions. Whatever you decide, you'll be flying. Moving from one to another isn't too onerous once you have the base skills built up. In terms of 3 axis RAA vs light GA, you won't find too much difference in how they fly and all the things you learn are directly applicable. Flying is flying and its mostly procedural and aircraft specific, which you'll find anyway as you move from type to type.

 

In terms of 40yo spam can vs light new RAA wonder, I'm a little less black and white in that. I find that GA aircraft ride bumps better in general than an RAA aircraft and make for a more comfortable ride, and being bigger can help with passenger confidence. Also, depending on where you go, there's no hard and fast rule saying you need to fly a 40yo GA aircraft, again you just need to be prepared to pay for the privilege, which again is a value for money thing. 

 

As with the other posts, the RPL / RPC thing is a bit of a weird middle ground, and not too across it in detail so can't offer much there.

 

Hope that helps with your decision.

 

[SGM]

On 14/10/2020 at 3:44 PM, Jeffmel said:

the Point Cook Flying Club have J120 for hire $120/hr, good place to accumulate my solo hour. a nearby regional flying school charges $265 for dual on a TECNAM Eaglet. I think it will be a good place to get my PPL?

I fly at Lilydale on the east of Melbourne... $120/hr midweek in a Jabiru.

 

https://www.lilydaleairport.com.au/about-us/yarra-valley-aviation-our-fleet

 

Best part is the friendly country feel.. chatting in the hangars, a few social activities, getting a free ride with someone who is doing a daytrip.  They are also doing weekly online seminars (apparently recorded on their facebook channel - Lilydale Flying School)