Is RPC a good pathway to RPL or even PPL?

[kgwilson]

Their instructor rates are pretty high $132.00/hour for instruction in a PA28-181 & $121.00/hour in a J120. That's $4,620.00 for a 35 hour week or $4,235.00 in a J120. Given most schools charge around $50.00/hour for the instructor it seems pretty steep to me. Then again this is Melbourne.

[RossK]

Lilydales rates are good for melbourne. $120/hr for the instructor is the minimum you'll find in Melbourne, plenty of schools charging a lot more,

Instructors are very good, covered more than required in the syllabus for my RPC.

[Bosi72]

4 hours ago, RossK said:

Lilydales rates are good for melbourne. $120/hr for the instructor is the minimum you'll find in Melbourne, plenty of schools charging a lot more,

Instructors are very good, covered more than required in the syllabus for my RPC.

RVAC in Moorabbin instructors charges are $119 in all their single engine aircrafts, PA28s, Cessnas, Slings, etc...

 

[SplitS]

I down graded my license to RPL from PPL because the medical is a lot easier in a country town, your local GP can do it.

If you are doing the training and want to fly GA there is no point not doing the PPL. Whether you fly RAAs first then transition or start with GA aircraft is really a question on what you want to achieve. If I was starting again I would be aiming at a J230 and ignore GA these aircraft will give you 90% of the performance at 1/2 the cost.

Unless you want more than 2 seat's or enter controlled airspace.

[Jeffmel]

On 16/10/2020 at 8:19 AM, SGM said:

I fly at Lilydale on the east of Melbourne... $120/hr midweek in a Jabiru.

 

https://www.lilydaleairport.com.au/about-us/yarra-valley-aviation-our-fleet

 

Best part is the friendly country feel.. chatting in the hangars, a few social activities, getting a free ride with someone who is doing a daytrip.  They are also doing weekly online seminars (apparently recorded on their facebook channel - Lilydale Flying School)

 

They look pretty good, and rates really attractive, lowest I see in the metro area. pity there is nothing similar in the west. the cheapest i can find here charges $256/hr for dual, and 195 for solo, for a TECNAM Eaglet

 

not sure if they are willing to haggle given the current situation. 

[Jeffmel]

On 16/10/2020 at 1:51 PM, Bosi72 said:

RVAC in Moorabbin instructors charges are $119 in all their single engine aircrafts, PA28s, Cessnas, Slings, etc...

 

 

from their website the fleet looks a bit dated. will ask for their rate for RPL training

[Bosi72]

1 hour ago, Jeffmel said:

 

from their website the fleet looks a bit dated. will ask for their rate for RPL training

Yes and no. 

 

Their latest 2 Slings are from 2017, however the rest are quite old, as same as many other GA schools elsewhere.

 

Don't be misled by age of GA aircrafts. All these new generation aircrafts are made with cost savings in mind (same as cars, tv's, etc..), so whilst there are improvements, there are also corner cuts.

 

You can find the latest glass cockpit aircrafts in CAE Oxford, but they only accept full-time students $$$.

 

Pricing at RVAC is what you see on their website. Pick the aircraft for hire, then select Dual vfr. You can deduct $10 if you join the club.

 

Training at every school is based on competency, so it doesn't mean you will get your licence after 25 hours prescribed by Casa as >minimum<.

 

Regarding location, if your goal is aviation career, Moorabbin may be a better option due to exposure to controlled airspace, busy (hectic) environment, but you will be burning money on the ground whilst waiting for clearances. 

 

If your goal is recreation/hobby, then Lilydale, Tyabb, Tooradin may be a better option, providing driving to and back from aerodrome is not an issue. 

 

When I checked >dual< pricing last year, they were all similar for the same aircraft type, so I picked Moorabbin as closest to my home, and didn't regret at all.

 

Cheers

 

 

 

 

 

[Jeffmel]

4 hours ago, Bosi72 said:

Yes and no. 

 

Their latest 2 Slings are from 2017, however the rest are quite old, as same as many other GA schools elsewhere.

 

Don't be misled by age of GA aircrafts. All these new generation aircrafts are made with cost savings in mind (same as cars, tv's, etc..), so whilst there are improvements, there are also corner cuts.

 

You can find the latest glass cockpit aircrafts in CAE Oxford, but they only accept full-time students $$$.

 

Pricing at RVAC is what you see on their website. Pick the aircraft for hire, then select Dual vfr. You can deduct $10 if you join the club.

 

Training at every school is based on competency, so it doesn't mean you will get your licence after 25 hours prescribed by Casa as >minimum<.

 

Regarding location, if your goal is aviation career, Moorabbin may be a better option due to exposure to controlled airspace, busy (hectic) environment, but you will be burning money on the ground whilst waiting for clearances. 

 

If your goal is recreation/hobby, then Lilydale, Tyabb, Tooradin may be a better option, providing driving to and back from aerodrome is not an issue. 

 

When I checked >dual< pricing last year, they were all similar for the same aircraft type, so I picked Moorabbin as closest to my home, and didn't regret at all.

 

Cheers

 

 

 

 

 

Appreciate the info. 

 

It is a bit complicated for me as I have not decided whether to pursue a career in aviation, and even if I do, I will do it more on a casual side, things like piloting small sightseeing planes, fly for advertisement and ect. 

 

I have worked in travel industry for the last 5 yrs,  had a promising career and just started my own touring business when the whole Covid thing hit here. I am lucky enough to get a job driving tram. Lots of time in the cockpit and I think I'd better get ready for the surge in industry when everything goes back. 

 

Flying has always been my dream so it won't hurt if I decided not to proceed to CPL. 

 

Anyway the first step is getting my RPC. Not sure when the regional and metro Melbourne restriction will be lifted so schools in metro area will be my choice. Might go to Lilydale to see them in person and decide. 

[Jerry_Atrick]

I just checked my log book and my very first training flight for the PPL was at RVAC on June, 1988. At the time, RVAC's single fleet were all PA28s, mainly Warriors and a 181. My first flight was in JIO, which is still used by club. Also at the club during my time there is MRX (the -181 - affectionally known as Mr X), BZE, and I think TPW (although it may have been there when I last flew there as a non-member in about 2012). The two 152s replaced UPS and UPY, both were involved in fatal accidents (1 near Coldstream and 1, I think a mid-air over or in the Moorabbin circuit). The Seminole may have been there when I was there.. I am single engine only.. they would have used it mainly for IFR and twin training..  There was also an on-line Partnavia at RVAC when I was there. Checking the log book, they finsihed with a few other 15x on the line, but some may well have been cross-hires (where a school will hire to another school if there is more demand at the "another" school).

 

So yes, there are some older planes there, but as Bosi says, these are fairly standard for GA training (and of course, the Slings are newer). Cessnas and Pipers form the core of general aviation schools worldwide - or at least in the Western world.. with the possible exception of France where I would guess Socata and Robin also have a good look in (and don't forget, Cessnas were also produced in Reims, which were factory corrosion proofed when the US ones weren't). In Europe, where there is a lot of modern aviation manufacturing coming out, we are seeing Slings and AT-3s at GA flying schools (or for GA training), but not as many as you think. Some continetnal schools also have Tecnams in their GA training fleet, but most of the modern/later model stuff that is being used for training is for commercial flight schools (think Oxford, FlyJerez, etc).

 

Also, as MattP says, cost should only be one factor. Forgetting your mission for the moment, I am living testimony that how you click with your instructor is probably the most important (so instructor continuity may be best as well). When I started flying again in the UK after a long break, I thought, "Hey, I know how to fly and am just blowig off the cobwebs", so I foudn the cheapest school and my instructor and I just could not communicate that well. After about 6 weeks, my confidence slumped, my flying was terrible and I was about to chuck it in thinking I have forgotten how to fly and can no longer learn... It culminated in a big row between himself and myself as I was obviously irritating him, and he me. When I got home, I told the wife I was hanging up the headsets and although she hates flying and hates me flying, she sat down and said she noticed I would come home visibily angry, something she never saw before and that maybe I should try somewhere else. A few weeks alter, with the right instructor, I was ready for the solo cross country qualifier and to take the test (unf, it would be months before I could because of weather).

 

Next, for me wouold be what the school is like - particularly, how confident are you of their maintenance, their staff, their procedures, etc. I picked RVAC after looking at a lot of schools at Moorabbin, Essendon, Melton, Lilydale, Romsey, Baccus Marsh (it's where TVSA, who are now in Moorabbin, started). I did a lot of TIFs, which I recommend because not only do you get to check out different instruction styles, it gives you the chance to build a framework/some experience to make a comparison about what works for you as well as how good the school is (e.g. do they rush through the checks or take their time and are thorough), etc. I settled on RVAC for my reasons... I am not saying they were  better or worse than anyone else.

 

On the question of RPC --> RPL --> PPL.. that is one of cost, preference, and mission.

 

On cost, the RPC route is going to be the cheapest. But, take into account the instructor and the school and whether it is right for you. One advantage though is that LSAs, althrough conceptually the same have slightly different characteristics and of course, when learning, you should stick to the same type, but if you know you will go to, say PPL, by the time you get there (and to a point where you sound you will be ready to take the pax you anticipate), you will have flown different types with different characteristics which may be beneficial in the longer run. So,  it will be cheaper, and also give you more varied training by the time you get to the PPL.

 

From your mission, I am guessing more than one pax but cross-coutry can be anything from Moorrabbin to Lilydale to Moorabbin to, well anywhere (but for discussions sake, let's say Mildura). An LSA is equally capable for both (assuming enough number of seats), but I think two elderly parents going to Mildura would feel more comfy in a GA type - generally - but not always... If you want to go to Mildura, you want to be able to cross that Class C over Tulla, maybe route overhad Tulla, so talking to Melbourne, Tullamarine; and Mildura. You may want to get an instrument rating (is there a recreational instrurment rating in Aus).. to maximise your chances of getting home shoudl the weather not be so great. I think you have to be PPL rated and fly only GA planes for IFR (you can fly IFR with permit/LSAs in the UK - so I may be wring as I am going off 30 year old Aus Air law). I don't see a RPL (which sounds like the old RPPL, except you can bolt on endorsements) would be of any great use nor save you any  money.

 

Cut a long story short..

- Get a school and instructor you like and click with.

- I would recommend RPC --> PPL from your mission and my assumptions; and it would give you varied training.

- If it costs more, it will take longer - it's a hobby (at the moment) and you don't sound like you're in your 50's yet.

- Don't pretend the tram is a plane while driving (when waitign at the end of a route to turn around, try not to make "neeeeooooowwww" noises)!

 

[Edit]

Airsports Flying School at Riddells Creek may have somethign for you. I have no idea about them and their website is a little on the amateur side as well as don't give hourly rates, but they should be easy to get to from the west with the Ring Road and freeways... May be worth a shot.. https://www.airsports.net/

 

Edited October 18, 2020 by Jerry_Atrick

[Bosi72]

10 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

... how you click with your instructor is probably the most important (so instructor continuity may be best as well). When I started flying again in the UK after a long break, I thought, "Hey, I know how to fly and am just blowig off the cobwebs", so I foudn the cheapest school and my instructor and I just could not communicate that well. After about 6 weeks, my confidence slumped, my flying was terrible and I was about to chuck it in thinking I have forgotten how to fly and can no longer learn... It culminated in a big row between himself and myself as I was obviously irritating him, and he me. When I got home, I told the wife I was hanging up the headsets..

Good thing about RVAC (and other schools) is they have 12 instructors available, meaning you don't have to switch to a different school if it doesn't "click". And yes, there will be moments/days when it's not clicking and you are not making any progress. There will be moments when you want to hang headsets, but every time when that happened, I said to myself - I'm not giving up, I am here to learn as no human is meant to fly. Talent in any profession is maybe 5-10%, 90-95% is work, very hard work.

 

I don't think that one instructor should be for life, as we all learn from each other regardless of experience/age/rank... I have flown with 10 of them and learned a lot.

They are all great and I strongly recommend all of them.

 

10 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

 I think you have to be PPL rated and fly only GA planes for IFR (you can fly IFR with permit/LSAs in the UK - so I may be wring as I am going off 30 year old Aus Air law).

To fly IFR in Australia you have to be either PPL or CPL, plus Instrument rated, which requires IREX theory exam and another 20hrs for Private IFR (GNSS), or 40hrs for Command IR (all 2D and 3D procedures). In addition to a pilot, an aircraft also has to be IFR rated depending on a category PVT/AWK/CHT/RPT.

 

Not sure about RPC, but for RPL and PPL you do receive a basic instrument training with a hood during a course. This is in case you accidentally got into clouds, but still not rated.

 

Wish me luck on Thursday 🙂

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bosi72]

14 hours ago, Jeffmel said:

.. a career in aviation, and even if I do, I will do it more on a casual side, things like piloting small sightseeing planes, fly for advertisement and ect...

 

For any income $ involvement in aviation, you will need a CPL. Regardless of how casual or how small aircraft, when flying people (sightseeing) you will need Medical Class 1. If mustering or cargo (no people), you may need Class2 depending on company policy. However CPL is required in both cases.

[Jeffmel]

15 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

I just checked my log book and my very first training flight for the PPL was at RVAC on June, 1988. At the time, RVAC's single fleet were all PA28s, mainly Warriors and a 181. My first flight was in JIO, which is still used by club. Also at the club during my time there is MRX (the -181 - affectionally known as Mr X), BZE, and I think TPW (although it may have been there when I last flew there as a non-member in about 2012). The two 152s replaced UPS and UPY, both were involved in fatal accidents (1 near Coldstream and 1, I think a mid-air over or in the Moorabbin circuit). The Seminole may have been there when I was there.. I am single engine only.. they would have used it mainly for IFR and twin training..  There was also an on-line Partnavia at RVAC when I was there. Checking the log book, they finsihed with a few other 15x on the line, but some may well have been cross-hires (where a school will hire to another school if there is more demand at the "another" school).

 

So yes, there are some older planes there, but as Bosi says, these are fairly standard for GA training (and of course, the Slings are newer). Cessnas and Pipers form the core of general aviation schools worldwide - or at least in the Western world.. with the possible exception of France where I would guess Socata and Robin also have a good look in (and don't forget, Cessnas were also produced in Reims, which were factory corrosion proofed when the US ones weren't). In Europe, where there is a lot of modern aviation manufacturing coming out, we are seeing Slings and AT-3s at GA flying schools (or for GA training), but not as many as you think. Some continetnal schools also have Tecnams in their GA training fleet, but most of the modern/later model stuff that is being used for training is for commercial flight schools (think Oxford, FlyJerez, etc).

 

Also, as MattP says, cost should only be one factor. Forgetting your mission for the moment, I am living testimony that how you click with your instructor is probably the most important (so instructor continuity may be best as well). When I started flying again in the UK after a long break, I thought, "Hey, I know how to fly and am just blowig off the cobwebs", so I foudn the cheapest school and my instructor and I just could not communicate that well. After about 6 weeks, my confidence slumped, my flying was terrible and I was about to chuck it in thinking I have forgotten how to fly and can no longer learn... It culminated in a big row between himself and myself as I was obviously irritating him, and he me. When I got home, I told the wife I was hanging up the headsets and although she hates flying and hates me flying, she sat down and said she noticed I would come home visibily angry, something she never saw before and that maybe I should try somewhere else. A few weeks alter, with the right instructor, I was ready for the solo cross country qualifier and to take the test (unf, it would be months before I could because of weather).

 

Next, for me wouold be what the school is like - particularly, how confident are you of their maintenance, their staff, their procedures, etc. I picked RVAC after looking at a lot of schools at Moorabbin, Essendon, Melton, Lilydale, Romsey, Baccus Marsh (it's where TVSA, who are now in Moorabbin, started). I did a lot of TIFs, which I recommend because not only do you get to check out different instruction styles, it gives you the chance to build a framework/some experience to make a comparison about what works for you as well as how good the school is (e.g. do they rush through the checks or take their time and are thorough), etc. I settled on RVAC for my reasons... I am not saying they were  better or worse than anyone else.

 

On the question of RPC --> RPL --> PPL.. that is one of cost, preference, and mission.

 

On cost, the RPC route is going to be the cheapest. But, take into account the instructor and the school and whether it is right for you. One advantage though is that LSAs, althrough conceptually the same have slightly different characteristics and of course, when learning, you should stick to the same type, but if you know you will go to, say PPL, by the time you get there (and to a point where you sound you will be ready to take the pax you anticipate), you will have flown different types with different characteristics which may be beneficial in the longer run. So,  it will be cheaper, and also give you more varied training by the time you get to the PPL.

 

From your mission, I am guessing more than one pax but cross-coutry can be anything from Moorrabbin to Lilydale to Moorabbin to, well anywhere (but for discussions sake, let's say Mildura). An LSA is equally capable for both (assuming enough number of seats), but I think two elderly parents going to Mildura would feel more comfy in a GA type - generally - but not always... If you want to go to Mildura, you want to be able to cross that Class C over Tulla, maybe route overhad Tulla, so talking to Melbourne, Tullamarine; and Mildura. You may want to get an instrument rating (is there a recreational instrurment rating in Aus).. to maximise your chances of getting home shoudl the weather not be so great. I think you have to be PPL rated and fly only GA planes for IFR (you can fly IFR with permit/LSAs in the UK - so I may be wring as I am going off 30 year old Aus Air law). I don't see a RPL (which sounds like the old RPPL, except you can bolt on endorsements) would be of any great use nor save you any  money.

 

Cut a long story short..

- Get a school and instructor you like and click with.

- I would recommend RPC --> PPL from your mission and my assumptions; and it would give you varied training.

- If it costs more, it will take longer - it's a hobby (at the moment) and you don't sound like you're in your 50's yet.

- Don't pretend the tram is a plane while driving (when waitign at the end of a route to turn around, try not to make "neeeeooooowwww" noises)!

 

[Edit]

Airsports Flying School at Riddells Creek may have somethign for you. I have no idea about them and their website is a little on the amateur side as well as don't give hourly rates, but they should be easy to get to from the west with the Ring Road and freeways... May be worth a shot.. https://www.airsports.net/

 

Cannot thank you enough. 

 

I understand the differences of learning in GA planes or small sport planes are like learning to drive in a Golf or 30 yrs old Kenworth. 

 

Basic concepts such as road rules, steering and gear changing are similar so it make sense to start with a Golf. 

 

Plus, it does not cost much for a RPC - RPL conversion, the latter one gives me more freedom in choosing planes and taking pax.

 

So I think the road for me will be RPC - numerous ratings - RPL (start having fun with families) - PPL (in the future) - CPL (maybe)

 

I will check the schools you mentioned hopefully find one suits me. 

[kgwilson]

24 minutes ago, Jeffmel said:

Cannot thank you enough. 

 

I understand the differences of learning in GA planes or small sport planes are like learning to drive in a Golf or 30 yrs old Kenworth. 

 

Basic concepts such as road rules, steering and gear changing are similar so it make sense to start with a Golf. 

 

Plus, it does not cost much for a RPC - RPL conversion, the latter one gives me more freedom in choosing planes and taking pax.

 

So I think the road for me will be RPC - numerous ratings - RPL (start having fun with families) - PPL (in the future) - CPL (maybe)

 

I will check the schools you mentioned hopefully find one suits me. 

A sound plan. So long as you have your Class 2 medical you can do just about as much with the RPL as a PPL during daylight hours.

[Flyingfish]

Interesting discussion above.

I'd support your plan. I started with RPC with passenger and navigation, then went to RPL (with class 2 medical) when it became available to gain access to controlled airspace. Happy at the moment with RPL, and enjoying flying my own two-seat plane. Considering PPL training soon to allow night VFR. Using own plane for training saves on training costs.

[Jeffmel]

10 minutes ago, Flyingfish said:

Interesting discussion above.

I'd support your plan. I started with RPC with passenger and navigation, then went to RPL (with class 2 medical) when it became available to gain access to controlled airspace. Happy at the moment with RPL, and enjoying flying my own two-seat plane. Considering PPL training soon to allow night VFR. Using own plane for training saves on training costs.

 

I though people who have their own planes would not care so much about training cost 🙂

[Bosi72]

54 minutes ago, Jeffmel said:

 

I though people who have their own planes would not care so much about training cost 🙂

Don't trust what you see on the TV 🙂

[Flyingfish]

To be clear, I was hiring planes from flying schools through to end of RPL training and then realised if I wanted to use the qualifications to fly more than about 50 hours per year it would make better financial sense to purchase a plane. It's definitely a financial stretch. But the upside is future training will be less costly. The cost of hiring aircraft has gone up a lot in the last 10 years. Looking back, If I had been more confident that I would succeed with the flying I may have bought into an aircraft syndicate or leased a plane to use for a year while doing flying training. I know someone who leased a helicopter for a year at the very beginning of his training and used it through to CPL and initial 500 hours required for job seeking. Although I'm sure that would have cost a lot and it was a major commitment up front, it would have been significantly cheaper than paying for all those hours via hourly rental. Not saying that will necessarily suit you, just other ideas to reduce cost depending on your goals. Some flying schools also offer block training paid in advance at cheaper rates per hour. You just wouldn't want to get too far ahead, depending on the financial health of the flying school...