MODE C, MODE S transponders and australian future requirements

[RFguy]

What's the story with the movement to Mode S, ADSB compatible transponders?

 

ASA mandates that all new or replacement transponders must be Mode S + ADS-B

 

https://www.airservicesaustralia.com/wp-content/uploads/FAQ_ADS-B_DEC16.pdf

 

Is it uncool to have a Mode C transponder + a SkyEcho doing ADB-B in the same aircraft ? --- I don't think they'll be happy together in the same aircraft, there will be a fight.

 

Seems for good transponder integration. really need Mode S . All of the new ones are mode S + ADS-B out

 

Now, ADSB- IN is also very useful, but the big boys are 2x the price for ADSB in +out  compared to the MODE S + ADSB-OUT

So seems the best way is

 

use a MODE S + ADSB capable  transponder

PLUS

a Skyview for ADSB IN only..... (or use a $25  RTL-SDR USB dongle and a Rasp PI for ADSB IN which I have at my home) 

 

Seems that Skyview in -out can do a good ID job by itself without a MODEA/C/S transponder, but is only 20 watts so useful really only in fairly close proximity to the radar  (maybe 50nm I'll have to check.) and absolute optical line of site.

 

 

 

-glen

 

Edited October 13, 2020 by RFguy

[graham brown]

The move away from mode c transponders is driven by better functionality of mode s, ads b and decommissioning of secondary surveillance radars. ASA has built ads b receiving network across Australia and mandated ads b for IFR flights. Now that cheap vfr ads b is available the way ahead is clear so we can all have compatible system for surveillance. As you say the ads b in on the sky echo is very cheap and it works well for me. The output of sky echo could be improved by an external antenna as mentioned on another thread. It does work well in plastic planes though.

[Flying Binghi]

Hmmm... Subject I’ve covered before. Going back many years ago to the dawn of ADS-B, over at pprune forum I were warning of terrorists using GPS signals to guide bomb drones - Got laughed at quite a bit. Even had someone start up a thread from memory called “Bingys Buzz Bombs” Apparently, terrorists will never have GPS guided bomb drones.....

 

Anyway...

 

ADSB presents a big danger to light aircraft. 

 

ADSB needs GPS to work.

 

As the ‘magenta line’ fixated idiots become more the norm in light aircraft looking outside the window will become a lost art.

 

When the GPS signal gets turned off for what-ever reason then all light aircraft in the affected area will likely be grounded.

 

 

 

 

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[SplitS]

From July 16th, CASA’s Advisory Circular 91-23 “ADS-B for enhancing situational awareness” will approve Electronic Conspicuity (EC) devices and integrated Traffic Awareness Beacon Systems (TABS) for VFR aircraft.
See the full AC here: AC 91-23v1.0

This AC allows VFR aircraft to utilise the ADS-B OUT functionality of lower cost and portable devices, except during the following situations:

(a) in VFR flight at or above FL290; or

(b) concurrently with a Mode S transponder that is also transmitting ADS‐B. An EC device may be operated in Australia concurrently with a Mode A/C, or a Mode S transponder (other than one that is transmitting ADS-B). UAT is NOT used nor permitted in Australia.

During these times the transmitting (ADS-B OUT) functionally must be disabled.

 

From https://ozrunways.tenderapp.com/kb/frequently-asked-questions/skyecho-ads-b

 

I use a transponder  mode C (no ADSB out) and skyecho at the same time if you are entering controlled air space you need the transponder. The Skyecho allows you to see and be seen by other aircraft for about $1000 buck everyone should carry one. I can see aircraft out to about 20nm intermittently(other sky echo's) and solid signal at about 10nm which is fine. "Real" ADSB I have seen them out at over 100nm.

 

[RFguy]

Ok so concurrent  Mode C    WITH separate ADS-B box is sanctioned OK ?   

The reason I bring is up  is that when the devices are in the same box, there is coordination between them, they're more likely to work in harmony.

 

The Skyview while only 20 watts, compared to 200W for the full monty is only a factor of 3x on range for line of site.

The compromised antenna is probably at least another 3dB down, we the SKyview is  on average 5x on range.

However! given that the 200W Xponder should be good out to 300nm  ish, the Skyview  performs a great facility i think, especially having regional Rex flights etc see when they are close....

glen

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mkennard]

I think you mean Sky Echo.

[SplitS]

5 hours ago, RFguy said:

Ok so concurrent  Mode C    WITH separate ADS-B box is sanctioned OK ?   

The reason I bring is up  is that when the devices are in the same box, there is coordination between them, they're more likely to work in harmony.

 

The Skyview while only 20 watts, compared to 200W for the full monty is only a factor of 3x on range for line of site.

The compromised antenna is probably at least another 3dB down, we the SKyview is  on average 5x on range.

However! given that the 200W Xponder should be good out to 300nm  ish, the Skyview  performs a great facility i think, especially having regional Rex flights etc see when they are close....

glen

 

 

Quote

Yes  as long as (the mode C transponder) is NOT transmitting ADSB

If you have them in the same box you would not need the skyecho. You can set it up for ADSB in only but there are cheaper solutions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 17, 2020 by SplitS

[RFguy]

yeah I dont know any Mode C that would transmit ADSB, only the Mode S, which the new ones seem to be all ADSB-OUT.

 

SkyEcho is a good, cost effective product, IMO

 

 

 

[SplitS]

The SkyEcho is fantastic and one of the few good things CASA has done by allowing us to use it.

It's as good as advertised we should all be carrying one.

[Downunder]

On 13/10/2020 at 11:33 AM, RFguy said:

Is it uncool to have a Mode C transponder + a SkyEcho doing ADB-B in the same aircraft ? --- I don't think they'll be happy together in the same aircraft, there will be a fight.

Been done. Works well. This is what it was designed for.

[RFguy]

Very good.

Actually my question  was meant to be "Is it uncool to have a Mode S transponder  + a SkyEcho doing ADB-B in the same aircraft ?"

That was my question but with a rather mind altering typo.

 

doh

 

anyway, all resolved.

 

Edited October 17, 2020 by RFguy

[Flying Binghi]

3 hours ago, SplitS said:

The SkyEcho is fantastic and one of the few good things CASA has done by allowing us to use it.

It's as good as advertised we should all be carrying one.

 

Ah, I see. An advertising thread..🤨

 

Shouldn’t this thread be listed under Items For Sale

 

 

 

 

 

.

[RFguy]

Is there an undisclosed financial interest we (participants) should be aware of ?

[SplitS]

Haha no I paid full price and have no stake in SkyEcho. For what it does and the price we should all have one. The two planes that mid-aired while IFR last year would no doubt agree.