Rotax engines banned from use in military drones

[JG3]

Bombardier Recreational Products (BRP) says it has suspended the delivery of aircraft engines to "countries with unclear usage" in the wake of reports that some of those engines are being used on Turkish combat drones deployed by Azerbaijan in fighting against Armenian forces in Nagorno-Karabakh.

The Quebec-based company — better known for its Ski-Doo and Lynx snowmobiles — said it became aware late last week that some of the recreational aircraft engines produced by its Austrian subsidiary, Rotax, are being used on Turkish Bayraktar TB2 unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs).

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/turkey-armenia-azerbaijan-drones-bombardier-1.5775350

[M61A1]

I am fairly sure that I read somewhere a few years ago that Rotax 9 series engines were being used in some American UAVs. The commentary was that some people were very annoyed because in the UAVs they were given a very short service life and were required to be destroyed on removal so that no civvies could use the parts.

[Downunder]

Bayraktar drone. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayraktar_TB2

Uses the fuel injected 100hp Rotax engine.

Pictured here from one shot down in Libya.

 

 

To see how much warfare has been totally changed, view the following video.

BE AWARE! IT IS NOT PRETTY.

Interesting to note is the "anti-air" units being hit.

 

Edited October 24, 2020 by Downunder

[Downunder]

6 hours ago, M61A1 said:

I am fairly sure that I read somewhere a few years ago that Rotax 9 series engines were being used in some American UAVs. The commentary was that some people were very annoyed because in the UAVs they were given a very short service life and were required to be destroyed on removal so that no civvies could use the parts.

The US made Predator drone uses the Rotax 914. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Atomics_MQ-1_Predator

 

[John Robert]

 Weaponised Drones are  a cowardly & very random means of killing. The word terrorism fits very well. Sad that the Rotax engine is being used for this purpose.The US is a country increasingly deploying them. If their civilian population was subject to their attack, can you imagine the outcry.

Picture some little computer geek 20,00Km from the scene guiding a missile to a target that he "thinks" may be the guy who has had the gall to wave 2 fingers at the US. Sadly same little runt will never be in the position to have the fire returned.

John Robert

[cscotthendry]

4 hours ago, John Robert said:

 

Picture some little computer geek 20,00Km from the scene guiding a missile to a target that he "thinks" may be the guy who has had the gall to wave 2 fingers at the US. Sadly same little runt will never be in the position to have the fire returned.

John Robert

If you truly believe that is how UAVs are used, you need to do some reading.

 

”drones” are piloted by professional fighter pilots and targets are studied for months before a strike. Even then, a strike is only authorized at the highest level. After a strike, the pilot and/or weapons officer are counselled and debriefed for the psychological impacts of carrying out an assassination.

Your characterization of computer geeks running rampant and frivolously firing off Hellfire missles at people who've annoyed them is as ignorant as it is offensive.

[Downunder]

1 hour ago, cscotthendry said:

If you truly believe that is how UAVs are used, you need to do some reading.

 

”drones” are piloted by professional fighter pilots and targets are studied for months before a strike. Even then, a strike is only authorized at the highest level. After a strike, the pilot and/or weapons officer are counselled and debriefed for the psychological impacts of carrying out an assassination.

Your characterization of computer geeks running rampant and frivolously firing off Hellfire missles at people who've annoyed them is as ignorant as it is offensive.

Do you really think the Libyan's, Turk's, Azeri's and various terrorist organisations roll like that?

These are tactical drones, loitering over the combat zone taking out targets of opportunity. 

The Azeri's are also using Israeli suicide drones. One can be seen early in the video. 

 

We've past the point of "strategic" strikes and assasinations by drones by cashed up western democracies. 

This is new warfare. The wholesale deployment of combat drones 24/7 over the tactical battlefield.

Alot of governments should be shitting their collective pants about how easy and cheap it is to get hold of these drones and the success they acheive.

The last few weeks have shown total battlefield domination by the Azeri's flying these Israeli and Turkish drones.

 

 

 

[cscotthendry]

47 minutes ago, Downunder said:

Do you really think the Libyan's, Turk's, Azeri's and various terrorist organisations roll like that?

These are tactical drones, loitering over the combat zone taking out targets of opportunity. 

The Azeri's are also using Israeli suicide drones. One can be seen early in the video. 

 

We've past the point of "strategic" strikes and assasinations by drones by cashed up western democracies. 

This is new warfare. The wholesale deployment of combat drones 24/7 over the tactical battlefield.

Alot of governments should be shitting their collective pants about how easy and cheap it is to get hold of these drones and the success they acheive.

The last few weeks have shown total battlefield domination by the Azeri's flying these Israeli and Turkish drones.

 

 

 

That's not anything like what John Robert posted and what I was responding to.

For a start, any state owned drones are NOT going to be piloted by pimply computer geeks with grudges. They are going to be serious equipment, operated by serious, trained individuals conducting military operations with significant targets, not just bumping off someone who annoyed them.

Secondly, part of what you're describing falls into the category of improvised weapons. When you go down that path, a sharpened broom handle can become a "weapon" and generalizations about "targets of opportunity" apply but are meaningless in the wider discussion about "drones".

But you're right, "A lot of governments should be ARE shitting their collective pants" about explosive drone improvised devices. They are particularly lethal for ground troops. HOWEVER;

 

Remotely Piloted, means either radio or wire control. Radio control devices can be radio blasted out of the sky with high powered jamming devices. Wire guided drones aren't very effective because a) the drone has to trail a heavy (relatively) wire while traveling SLOWLY to a target. and b) A drone that size will attract attention and the wire leads straight back to the launcher. *BOOM*

 

 

[jackc]

War is a shitty business and never fair, those involved will do whatever it takes.  Proves that Rotax reputation for reliability is second to none, for all the wrong uses......

[M61A1]

26 minutes ago, jackc said:

War is a shitty business and never fair, those involved will do whatever it takes.  Proves that Rotax reputation for reliability is second to none, for all the wrong uses......

 

Some may remember the old "From the wonderful world of General Electric" jingle from the Fridge ads.

The 20mm Vulcan cannons That I serviced were also from the wonderful world of General Electric. Many day to day companies have produced weapons. I also recall ads by Ford Aerospace for AIM-9 Sidewinder missiles.

 

As for fair....Yeager reckons that if you went into a dogfight thinking that it was going to be "fair" you would probably lose.

[facthunter]

It's not all bad. GE are not going to produce any more Coal fired power stations. GE probably build some of the best. Nev

[Yenn]

Does anyone really believe that US fighter pilots are somewhere above pimply faced geeks when it comes to killing people. If they believe what their bosses tell them, they will have no remorse about killing unarmed civilians. There military does not have a very good record of acting compassionately or even ethicly.

[Jase T]

Big breath in here folks.  Just think for a moment.. Is BRP selling enough Rotax engines to keep themselves afloat right now? Without military sales to back them up would they pull the pin in Rotax?

[onetrack]

The shooting down of MH17 is pretty indicative that once weaponry of any type is manufactured, it is highly likely to end up in the hands of poorly-trained operators, who know only how to make it launch at a "suspect target".

 

As to terrorism and drones, it only takes a small number of disaffected individuals to purchase off-the-shelf Chinese drones and weaponise them, as we've already seen in the Middle East.

 

There must be a lot of Western senior military leaders laying awake at night, wondering just how the terrorists will penetrate their "security" next.

 

Rotax are no different to any other manufacturer - a sale is a sale - they have no real control over where their engines end up, or how they're used.

 

I would be worried about "cheap, only slightly used" Rotaxes and Rotax parts, ending up being offered for sale to civilians by unscrupulous people, who have scrounged them from military wreckage.

[Jase T]

47 minutes ago, onetrack said:

 

 

As to terrorism and drones, it only takes a small number of disaffected individuals to purchase off-the-shelf Chinese drones and weaponise them, as we've already seen in the Middle East.

 

 

I am aware of several instances of the simple DJI phantom being modified to drop a grenade or IED.. Simple effective and targeted... Less then $2K total cost and can be deployed over 1KM away. 

Edited October 25, 2020 by Jase T

[kasper]

2 hours ago, Jase T said:

Big breath in here folks.  Just think for a moment.. Is BRP selling enough Rotax engines to keep themselves afloat right now? Without military sales to back them up would they pull the pin in Rotax?

Drone sales are not going to keep them afloat - there are fewer than 150 Turkish drones this thread is about.  There are very few USA drones that used them - they got retired and replaced with heavy fuel engines as per us requirements for all engines. 
 

the number of sport aircraft built even now will be many times the number the drones ever used. 

[jackc]

7 hours ago, onetrack said:

The shooting down of MH17 is pretty indicative that once weaponry of any type is manufactured, it is highly likely to end up in the hands of poorly-trained operators, who know only how to make it launch at a "suspect target".

 

As to terrorism and drones, it only takes a small number of disaffected individuals to purchase off-the-shelf Chinese drones and weaponise them, as we've already seen in the Middle East.

 

There must be a lot of Western senior military leaders laying awake at night, wondering just how the terrorists will penetrate their "security" next.

 

Rotax are no different to any other manufacturer - a sale is a sale - they have no real control over where their engines end up, or how they're used.

 

I would be worried about "cheap, only slightly used" Rotaxes and Rotax parts, ending up being offered for sale to civilians by unscrupulous people, who have scrounged them from military wreckage.

  Lots of second hand ex military war zone Landcruiser parts on the market.  Not many panels, but plenty of running gear!

Nobody cares about the source.....

[Bruce Tuncks]

The whole idea of warfare is to  avoid a " fair fight ". My ex-next door neighbor, a very kind and nice bloke who would never have voted for Hitler, finished the war as a German 18 year-old sheetmetal worker attached to a Luftwaffe base. One day they ( all 300 or so non-flying staff) were told to become infantry and fight off the Americans.  Well the Americans came over the hill with 3,000 tanks.

Were they cowardly? Not in my book. The disparity in fighting power meant that the Germans could surrender with dignity, which is what they did.

But having said that, I have to say that I don't like the idea of using drones ( or killer robots ) to do the fighting.

[Jabiru7252]

I think drones are the bees knees. There's something about killing a bunch of zeebs on a screen with your grandkids on your knee that I like. Or, we could forget the drones and their precision strikes and just carpet bomb the daylights out of the enemy. More chance of killing innocents and getting killed yourself but hell, at least it's not cowardly.

[jackc]

On 26/10/2020 at 6:38 PM, Jabiru7252 said:

I think drones are the bees knees. There's something about killing a bunch of zeebs on a screen with your grandkids on your knee that I like. Or, we could forget the drones and their precision strikes and just carpet bomb the daylights out of the enemy. More chance of killing innocents and getting killed yourself but hell, at least it's not cowardly.

Noting like a good War to try out all the toys 🙂

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

The phrase, "Watch this space..." comes to mind...

[Wirraway]

On 24/10/2020 at 11:50 PM, John Robert said:

 Weaponised Drones are  a cowardly & very random means of killing. The word terrorism fits very well................

John Robert

I recall reading that many Admirals back in the day described submarines as cowardly too. Cannot quickly find the references, but here's an illustration of what I am alluding to.

Cowardly attack

[John Robert]

I was in the Forbidden City in Beijing. sat down on a step about 2 metres from an elderly Chinese couple with a young girl about 5 years old. I guessed they were Grand parents taking the child out for a day. The little girl smiled at me & I returned the smile. In the next 5 minutes she had inched her way towards me until she was almost on my knee. She offered me a lolly from a tiny little pack. I accepted & shortly after she spoke to her guardians & they produced a tiny phone that had a camera. They wanted to take my picture with the little girl. After the picture was taken I gave the child the equivalent of about $5 to cover the lolly she had given me. The old man spoke to the child & she gave me the money back & would not accept it again.

One year later I was in the military museum in Hanoi. The museum has a floor dedicated to atrocities with photographs committed by the US forces on the civilian population. I read a report where John Kerry took his Seals into a village, lined up the dozen or so women, some with babies only one very old man way past being mistaken for a combattent. Murdered all of them, one lady had fallen on her baby to protect him & she was moved & the baby was bayoneted. They found a nine year old girl hiding in a storm water drain, (the yanks had a reputation for raping pre puberty children) hence she had been hidden in the drain. The little girl was bayoneted in the stomach . The picture of the murdered girl looked like an older sister to the one I had met in Beijing. I walked out of the museum with tears in my eyes & determined to publicise the atrocities when ever & where ever I could.

About 25 years later this crime came in front of an American Judge. Some of the Seals that were present confirmed that this had happened. There was no one charged over the murder of these innocent civilians. The US Military are on record to encourage the "softening up of the civilian population in the hope that it may shorten the conflict. They would have to be idiots to not realise that this is what causes terrorism. In many cases a terrorist is a very brave person seeking revenge for an atrocity committed on his family. Speaking for myself, were any force to murder my family I would be the first in line for an explosive vest or any other way I could get justice or take revenge.

 

Sadly  many people are so biased ,callous & racist that they accept this behaviour from their friends & yet criticise other nations  for minor misdemeanours.

There is much conclusive  proof on the internet, including transcripts of the trials that show barbaric treatment by US forces in all the wars they have inflicted on the world since 1950. There fear of communism has been the excuse to cause the death of over 6million people, there fear of Islam & support for Israel has probably been the cause of another 6 million deaths in the Middle East. The Australian Government grovels at the feet of idiots like Trump & spends billions of dollars on offensive weapons, suitable only to support the US in their quest for world dominance. For a much less investment we could develop our own defensive nuclear capability & be an independent force in Asia where we live & trade.

 

See also the information on the US use of Germ Warfare in Korean 1951/ 52, denied of course by the US.

uswarcrines.rtf kerrywarcrimes.rtf

[Wirraway]

Yours is quite a confronting story, and I do not doubt the veracity of what you say.

 

This may sound trite, and I hate to put this down, I don't wish to engage in conversation by way of cliche, but I cannot think of a better way of saying it. 

 

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

 

And, sadly, as we are finding out, some Australian troops are alleged to have behaved in an appalling manner in Afghanistan.

Time and time again, history shows that poor behaviour by combatants is counter-productive in the extreme.

 

My comment referencing submarines, was an attempt to illustrate that this is not the first time new technology has been labelled "cowardly".

 

Which is different to the appropriate use of technology against combatants.

Submarines Vs destroyers, frigates and aircraft carriers, fair game.

Submarines Vs passenger liners or hospital ships, beyoned the pale.

 

Drones Vs armoured fighting vehicles, gun emplacements or military buildings, I would say fair game. Difference between drone versus piloted aircraft strike??? Less risk to your own side.

Drone Vs civil population. Not appropriate, but no difference to area bombing of WWI, WWII Vietnam.

 

Nest question, should there be military activity/conflict happening?

Another story entirely.

 

Crimes against non-combantants, are just that, crimes.

John Robert, we probably agree on most things.

Pace

 

[pylon500]

Having Rotax deny sales to Turkey, or any other country that could be similarly labeled is a moot point as said manufacturers will simply go to the Chinese clone company and buy their Rotax's from them.