Rotax engines banned from use in military drones

[Old Koreelah]

[Bruce Tuncks]

Are there chinese clone rotaxes? tell us more please.

[jackc]

11 hours ago, pylon500 said:

Having Rotax deny sales to Turkey, or any other country that could be similarly labeled is a moot point as said manufacturers will simply go to the Chinese clone company and buy their Rotax's from them.

None of them will ever make TBO 🙂

[Thruster88]

8 minutes ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

Are there chinese clone rotaxes? tell us more please.

https://www.flyer.co.uk/zongshen-aero-engines-available-in-europe/

[SSCBD]

48 minutes ago, Thruster88 said:

https://www.flyer.co.uk/zongshen-aero-engines-available-in-europe/

58 minutes ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

Are there chinese clone rotaxes? tell us more please.

 

YES

Edited February 7, 2021 by SSCBD

[SSCBD]

The USA drone market ban is not going to hurt Rotax

[APenNameAndThatA]

19 minutes ago, SSCBD said:

The USA drone market ban is not going to hurt Rotax

It *might* be the opening a competitor needs to make Rotax the next Nokia or Kodak. 

 

I think drones are a good idea. The problem is that the way they are deployed means that each time you kill five combatants you incense 100 people enough to become combatants. The US has provided a bad example to the world. Imagine China treating Australia the way the US treats other countries?  

[Jabiru7252]

Well, going by the electronics junk coming out of China, I'd find it hard to trust their airplane engines. Poor quality materials, parts driven beyond their specs. Shortcuts to keep costs down. It's scary and dangerous, people have been killed using cheap Chinese crap.

[Bruce Tuncks]

Looking at Bunnings and the big W, it is hard to find anything NOT made in china.

[nomadpete]

I seriously doubt that the Chinese military manufacturing industry operates under the same quality control scrutiny as they use for our Australian Bunnings/Kmart orders.

[Old Koreelah]

5 hours ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

...I think drones are a good idea. The problem is that the way they are deployed means that each time you kill five combatants you incense 100 people enough to become combatants.

Totally agree! By their (mis)use of drones the US is sowing the seed of future revenge terrorist attacks.

Perhaps that’s all we can expect of a gun culture.

 

5 hours ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

...The US has provided a bad example to the world. Imagine China treating Australia the way the US treats other countries?  

I thought China already is.

[IBob]

Apologies if this has already been posted, but piston (or jet) powered drones are probably now the least of our worries. Note this was put together in 2017 by an arms control advocacy group, and the warning at the end is the real thing:

 

[FlyBoy1960]

In China you get what you pay for. If you want to pay the least possible price then you get absolute crap.

 

If you want to pay a fair and reasonable price then you can get a good product and in some cases the best product manufacturing in the world.

 

It is not fair to say that everything that comes out of China is rubbish because this is not true, you get what you pay for !

 

If you know it would cost $100 dollars to make something in Australia then would you be surprised if it was $2.50 in China that it would not be the same ?

[onetrack]

The Chinese are notorious for corruption and for not meeting specifications. The Chinese Govt has charged and jailed many high-position officials with bribery and corruption that led to serious deficiencies in products supplied.

Lui Zhijun, the Minister for Railways in China, was arrested, put on trial and sentenced to death for his poor management of the building and operation of the Chinese railways.

 

Zhujin was as corrupt as they come and was entirely focused on speed of railway rollout, which led to major corruption and bribery and major faults in Chinese railway equipment.

It all culminated in the Wenzhou train disaster, which was found to be the result of faulty train signalling equipment. The Chinese Govt investigated at a high level, and found ....

 

"(the blame for) the disaster, on 'serious design flaws', 'a neglect of safety management', and flaws in the bidding and testing processes used to acquire materials."

 

In essence, Zhujin used the standard Chinese modus operandi of profits first, and conformance with specifications, second. Major contracts go to "mates", and specifications are watered down or ignored.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liu_Zhijun

 

There was an episode about a decade ago where Chinese lifting equipment was sold on the world market - items such as slings, D-shackles, hooks, chains, etc.

All lifting equipment must meet precise specifications as to materials used, heat-treatments carried out, be load tested, and certified. And the certification must be carried out by approved certifiers. Not a lot different to aircraft, in many ways.

 

The whole lifting equipment certification process is designed to prevent loads falling from height, with the attendant financial losses, damage, and injuries and fatalities.

But lo and behold, within a short time of this Chinese lifting equipment reaching the market, there was a sudden outbreak of snapped D-shackles and hooks and other items of lifting apparatus.

 

An investigation was carried out, and it was found that the problem could be homed in to lifting equipment of Chinese origin.

The investigators found that the metals used in this Chinese lifting equipment did not meet strict specifications, the heat treatments were incorrect or deficient, and the certifications had been forged.

Then came the hunt to find and identify all that deficient lifting equipment of Chinese origin, in use in countries that had purchased it, and remove it from use.

 

It was a costly exercise and it did nothing for improving the widely held opinion that Chinese equipment of reputed high quality, is not what it is claimed to be.

 

Nearly all Chinese-origin gensets make output capacity claims, that cannot be substantiated under strict independent testing. They basically BS about their gensets capabilities.

The simple fact remains, that the Chinese have three major problems when it comes to manufactured goods -

 

1. Their QC systems are weak, and prone to corruption and bribery, resulting in equipment that fails to meet strict specifications.

2. The Chinese themselves have a national trait that profits must come before anything.

3. The Chinese suffer from a widespread national trait, in that they largely lack attention to detail - unlike the Japanese, who go to extreme lengths to ensure detail is addressed.

[IBob]

Onetrack, while China may have chronic manufacturing quality problems, I think we need to recognise that there are sharp operators everywhere, prepared to bend or break the rules if they think they can get away with it. The food processing industries throughout the west are rife with examples. Even here in little NZ we had the surprise discovery by highschool students that Ribena contained no vitamin C.

 

As for

18 minutes ago, onetrack said:

unlike the Japanese, who go to extreme lengths to ensure detail is addressed.

I worked briefly for Perreaux Sound many years ago, making high end audio gear. Folk would bring various brands of audio gear in to have it fixed, While Perreaux had it he would go over it with their lab gear, and almost none of it performed as per the claimed specifications.

[jackc]

Some years ago I setup a business importing containers of Chinese Motorcyles,  I laid down strict requirements for Customs Declaration compliance etc.  False declarations were made etc, copies of Mikuni name branded carbies, dangerous goods and unfumigated timber crates etc.  How many lies can you put on a declaration, ask the Chinese?

Could never get parts manuals, nor wiring diagrams, no spare parts.......cannibalised machines for parts.

Glad to get out of that business.......they can keep their Rotax ‘copies’.........

 

Edited February 8, 2021 by jackc
Spelling

[SSCBD]

What are the Jet commercial aircraft they are building and will / how it pass international certification.  

Also are not LSA aircraft being built in china? Anyone know the brands?

[nomadpete]

Before we all bag out the failings of chinese industry, have a close look at how the 'west' operates. I reckon the chinese are practicing all the habits of capitalism, and of 'western democracy'. It's just that they exploit it's failings more effectively than us.

 

I'm not saying it's good.  Corruption is endemic in our so called democracy too, and as pointed out above, there are sharp operators here, too. For example, just look to how often scandals erupt over the way that building and defence contracts get awarded.

 

Because of all the above, one cannot assume that simply paying more for anything sure doesn't guarantee getting a better end product.

Edited February 8, 2021 by nomadpete

[jackc]

But doing research on your intended purchases will see many better choices than what China offers......

[onetrack]

You will find, from now on, an increasing number of aviation and aerospace companies will start to adopt the policy of the aerospace parts supply company, that I've linked to below.

 

Scroll down to the bottom of the page, and read their message in red, in the bottom left hand corner.

 

https://www.aerospace-store.com/

[ClintonB]

On 08/02/2021 at 8:00 AM, Thruster88 said:

https://www.flyer.co.uk/zongshen-aero-engines-available-in-europe/

Still seem expensive if converted to AUD from Euros. I would doubt the risk of failure would be worth it. 

[jackc]

1 hour ago, ClintonB said:

Still seem expensive if converted to AUD from Euros. I would doubt the risk of failure would be worth it. 

IF the electrics they use in their motorcycle engines is an indication of quality,  then you need to  have CDI mounted on your control panel and a spare in your top pocket, so you can swap it in, without losing 100ft altitude 🙂 

[RossK]

16 hours ago, ClintonB said:

Still seem expensive if converted to AUD from Euros. I would doubt the risk of failure would be worth it. 

Agree, AU$23k not including shipping.

[RFguy]

While looking for a ring mount 2nd hand for a non Jabiru project, I have been reading about their (Zongshen) engines in Drones, and ZS seems to have some of their market and are reliable. 

the C100 (clone of the 24 year old   rotax 912ULS) is about 16.5 grand aussie inc freight , + GST. That puts it at 62% of the rotax price.

HOWEVER - Parts (ancillaries like ring mounts, exhaust systems etc) they're about 1/2 of rotax price. 

 

The $64 question is  
a) do you have concerns over interlectual property theft.  I think the engine is fair game after this long. However, a reason not to buy it on these grounds may be more general- IE you dont want to be on the obvious copycat bandwagon. 
b) do you have concerns over their QC. Quality in china varies from garbage to very good.  and it varies when it varies.  They have an unconditional 500 hour warranty which is interesting. Although I am not sure if their translation from some word into english word "unconditional " holds much weight. Most of the chinese car companies do this also, to offset concerns. 

 

Dont get me wrong, I dont love china, and  I think we will go to war with China before long, and I'm on the Quad side....




 

[pmccarthy]

Will you survive the forced landing to claim the warranty?