Parafield Airport - more clowns having a whinge....

[skippydiesel]

Guys! Guys! Just get yourselves a Rotax 912/914 powered glass aircraft and you wont have any overfly noise complaints - the neighbours push/ride on mowers makes far more noise than my little Zephyr.

 

The Europeans have very strict aircraft noise limits (so I am told), so make an effort to design quieter propellers and muffle their engines. 

[Downunder]

Never had noise complaints here, until Barons and Senecas started to be used for training.

There must be some power settings/configuration that make them exceptionally noisey as I've seen them myself flying some distance away but "screeming" in the sky.....

Non local operators, so l doubt they care. 

[RFguy]

There's a Seneca  I think, or is it a Duchess  ?  at Cowra in the FlyOz school fleet   which is bl00dy noisy !

11dB noisier in the clubhouse than all other aircraft .   (I have measured) 

 

[turboplanner]

6 hours ago, RFguy said:

Do any of our aircraft have exhaust outlet pointing UP instead of down. Does it make much difference to ground noise footprint if done ???

 

glen

In some engines the intake manifold resonance is louder than the exhaust.

With most noise complaints, when you talk to the people the problem is not the noise reading, but other factors like time or repetition.

[turboplanner]

12 hours ago, Jim McDowall said:

In the liberated stated of South Australia flying was never illegal, unlike that place called Danistan

Well how about this:

South Australia made a Declaration of Major Emergency on March 22/2020, under the Emergency management Act 2004.

It is still in force, and received another 28 days extension from October 17.

Under the SA Declaration of Major Emergency the State Co-Ordinator is given broad powers to do whatever is necessary (to protect people from C-19)

He can direct or prohibit the movement of people, animals and vehicles.

He can limit access to South Australia from travellers from other Australian Jurisdictions.

Penalties for an individual are up to $20,000.00

South Australia is banning most people from Victoria.

A  private aircraft flying into South Australia from Victoria fits into that structure.

 

As for "Danistan"

In Victoria, the person making the rules since the original State of Emergency, and in the current State of Disaster, under similar temporary legislation has been the Chief Health Officer, Professor Brett Sutton.   So you are shooting the messenger aiming at Dan.

[M61A1]

1 hour ago, turboplanner said:

As for "Danistan"

In Victoria, the person making the rules since the original State of Emergency, and in the current State of Disaster, under similar temporary legislation has been the Chief Health Officer, Professor Brett Sutton.   So you are shooting the messenger aiming at Dan.

As has been mentioned many times...Dan put these people there, and  some of them , it turns out have not made some recommendations that Dan has claimed he is acting on. So no matter which way you look at it....Dan is in charge and is ultimately responsible for Victoria and the mess that it's in. Same goes for the idiot we have running QLD, she'd be a Dan in the blink of an eye if a few people became infected.

 

It may surprise you to learn also that the airports are generally well monitored, and just because Turbo doesn't approve doesn't make it illegal.

Edited October 30, 2020 by M61A1

[skippydiesel]

No offence intended M61A1 but you clearly have no concept of how a highly infectious epidemic/quarantine situation must be managed IF IT IS TO HAVE ANY CHANCE OF SUCCEEDING.

The problem with the NSW & Federal Governments is that they are putting short term economic interest ahead of human health.

It has been understood since ancient times, that for a quarantine to be successful it must be 100% This concept of outbreak control is complete BS and can only lead to greater economic and human suffering.

We still have a chance of eliminating the virus from within our national boundaries – SA/WA/Tas/Qld/NT all understand this. I suspect Vic (Dan) does as well. Without the co-operation of NSW, total elimination CV-19 is unlikely (not impossible). 

The naysayers point out that C V-19 will still come in from overseas – true that’s why strict NO EXCEPTIONS (no special circumstances/wealthy/politicians/sports people/media personalities/etc) quarantine for all incoming persons must be implemented – that way the virus can be kept out of the general population and any positives can be handled appropriately in quarantine.

Australia used to have quarantine stations, in the vicinity of our major ports. With modern medicine we fooled ourselves that they were no longer needed. Nature has a way of demonstrating how arrogant we have become. We need new purpose built quarantine stations, strategically located (Central Australia would be good and bring a few much needed jobs or Christmas Island or similar) able to handle thousands of entries into Australia - the only way to keep us safe and still have some semblance of international human movement. I doubt very much that the "Bubble" concept will be manageable in the long term.

With a clean population, life has a chance of returning to some semblance of normalcy – within our national boundaries.

Those industries that have been built on short term overseas visitors (international tourism) - I don’t think it would be wise to invest in any related activity for many years to come – this includes passenger airlines.

What of an effective vaccine? Could be round the corner. Could still be years away or never. Even if we get one, what will be its efficacy and for how long will immunity be conferred? Then there is the problem of distribution – will the wealthy West supply sufficient vaccine to the poor of Africa, Indian Sub-Continent, Asia, Pacific and the Middle East, for a complete control/elimination? If they don’t the virus will continue to circulate, probably evolve and come back to bite us big time.

 

[M61A1]

24 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

No offence intended M61A1 but you clearly have no concept of how a highly infectious epidemic/quarantine situation must be managed IF IT IS TO HAVE ANY CHANCE OF SUCCEEDING.

The problem with the NSW & Federal Governments is that they are putting short term economic interest ahead of human health.

It has been understood since ancient times, that for a quarantine to be successful it must be 100% This concept of outbreak control is complete BS and can only lead to greater economic and human suffering.

We still have a chance of eliminating the virus from within our national boundaries – SA/WA/Tas/Qld/NT all understand this. I suspect Vic (Dan) does as well. Without the co-operation of NSW, total elimination CV-19 is unlikely (not impossible). 

The naysayers point out that C V-19 will still come in from overseas – true that’s why strict NO EXCEPTIONS (no special circumstances/wealthy/politicians/sports people/media personalities/etc) quarantine for all incoming persons must be implemented – that way the virus can be kept out of the general population and any positives can be handled appropriately in quarantine.

Australia used to have quarantine stations, in the vicinity of our major ports. With modern medicine we fooled ourselves that they were no longer needed. Nature has a way of demonstrating how arrogant we have become. We need new purpose built quarantine stations, strategically located (Central Australia would be good and bring a few much needed jobs or Christmas Island or similar) able to handle thousands of entries into Australia - the only way to keep us safe and still have some semblance of international human movement. I doubt very much that the "Bubble" concept will be manageable in the long term.

With a clean population, life has a chance of returning to some semblance of normalcy – within our national boundaries.

Those industries that have been built on short term overseas visitors (international tourism) - I don’t think it would be wise to invest in any related activity for many years to come – this includes passenger airlines.

What of an effective vaccine? Could be round the corner. Could still be years away or never. Even if we get one, what will be its efficacy and for how long will immunity be conferred? Then there is the problem of distribution – will the wealthy West supply sufficient vaccine to the poor of Africa, Indian Sub-Continent, Asia, Pacific and the Middle East, for a complete control/elimination? If they don’t the virus will continue to circulate, probably evolve and come back to bite us big time.

 

It has been well publicised that some of Dan's measures were not ever recommended by his CHO, infectious disease experts or anyone, and much discussion about the lack of effectiveness of said measures. Unless you only listen to the ABC, in which case Dan is god.

I will leave this discussion right here, as we've had this discussion many times over and the thread ended up being terminated.

There are various opinions on how bad the virus is and whether the response was appropriate and clearly we are poles apart. So I will leave it there.

[Steve L]

9 hours ago, Yenn said:

The most annoying noises I hear are slow moving helicopters and the even worse motorbikes. For the power used the motorbike is horrendously noisy. A 600hp truck can pass my place but I will not usually hear it, but motorbikes seem to always be apparent and even worse is the young lad with a two stroke who can't get above 2nd gear.

Yenn, you WILL hear my 500hp E9 pass. can even hear it 15 - 20ks away out in the bush 

[RFguy]

Turbs, Yenn  , it's probably why I find leaf-blowers maddening.

 

Yeah there are a couple of really noisy twins in the FlyOz fleet at Cowra . REALLY noisy. I gather this is OK because their noise levels are grandfathered ...... .  Ike's J230 is rather quiet compared to everything else . The Rotaxes are not too bad.  The Ag planes (PT-6 turbines) are pretty quiet.  They make a bit of noise when fine on TO.  you never hear them after that. I guess because they're flying  with the crops just under the gear..

 

[RFguy]

Let's just say, there are MANY things we pilots (yes I have my PC now)  can do to REDUCE the noise.

 

Even if we're permitted to make heaps of noise. If it can be avoided, I believe we should.  We shouldn't make donkeys of ourselves if it can be avoided.

 

Sure there are training maneuvers that require noise, and of course, flying safely may require application of noise, but there's no neighborly reason to scream downwind over the town at WOT when ambling along  at 60% would do it. 

 

and nor any good comes from flying over the same homestead  again and again when the pattern is running on the non town side.... you don't have to . be conscious of it.

etc etc....

*I know pilots that couldn't give a rats a*** because 'they're permitted to make noise '  and that does a disservice to the rest aviation community. They give ammunition to neighbors that would like to see ADs closed.

-glen 

Edited October 30, 2020 by RFguy

[turboplanner]

7 hours ago, M61A1 said:

It has been well publicised that some of Dan's measures were not ever recommended by his CHO, infectious disease experts or anyone, and much discussion about the lack of effectiveness of said measures. Unless you only listen to the ABC, in which case Dan is god.

I will leave this discussion right here, as we've had this discussion many times over and the thread ended up being terminated.

There are various opinions on how bad the virus is and whether the response was appropriate and clearly we are poles apart. So I will leave it there.

In Victoria we've lived with a major breakout and we've gone into a State of Disaster and learnt to live in a 5 km radius with only essential shops open.

We've seen 700 people per day newly infected, and buried up to 30 per day of our friends and relatives.

 

Our Premier has stood in front of the press at the same time every day for 120 days without a break.  Some of the press conferences have gone on for more than an hour and every journalist's question is answered. He hasn't seen his elderly mother since last Christmas. He took his first day off yesterday.

 

He has been joined every day by Chief Health Officer Professor Brett Sutton, who explains the medical reason behind what the Premier is announcing.

 

We've had huge success with our school year. I've spent several months Online teaching a Grade 3 and that was a wild ride at the beginning because the Eduation Department had no online teaching for Primary schools and the teachers had not been trained for it, and the students thought they were on holiday. We had cut and paste assignments where the live documents we were supposed to be completing were not live so we would have to print the page off, fill it out in pencil, scan it then submit it, but within a few weeks we were operating smoothly and organisations like Zoos kicked in with videos tuned to each Grade. We knew we were on the right track when we came out of lockdown 1 and the students had not lost ground. Then we had the State of Disaster,  and the system got better and better. The live lessons had reached the point where the teacher had full control of the students and they were able to discuss problems, read live to the teacher, carry out science experiments with the teacher etc. At times for some subjects we just linked straight into the US Education system and competed with kids the same age and the same assignments. There were assessment tests each month to measure how the children were progressing compared to a normal year. About 80% were on target compared to a normal year. The ones who were falling behind mainly did so because of circumstances such as being left alone at home or being taken out of class every day to "go shopping" or only having an elderly grand parent who struggled with the lessons   (I learnt how to do mental arithmetic to 10,000. There once were 12x12 tables but now it's unlimited; try 8271 +7345 in your head.) To handle this, the Education Department decided that no one would fail this year; all students will move forward next year, but in the final term those students who did fall behind will receive one on one tutoring in Term 4, and Term 1 next year so that by the end of Term 1 next year they will all but up to the standard of the 80%.

In our final week of online schooling it was obvious that we were receiving some serious Psychological  preparation for going back to a starkly different school regime. Grade 3s were told that the desks would look very different, but to avoid the shock of seeing spaced desks they "voted" to set up the classroom themselves. They were told to drop one pencil case and bring a favourite toy which would go on their desk for reassurance. They were told to bring a bottle of drinking water because all taps would be turned off, and that an adult would be in the toilets at all times, and there would be extra people cleaning surfaces all day, and they would have separate play areas and places they could walk.  Parents and carers (who seem to hug each other endlessly and bring along under age siblings) were prohibited from the school grounds and to avoid the shock of the sudden break at the entrance, drop off queues of cars were supervised by teachers in fancy dress who greeted the kids and keep the parents away. The psychological support didn't end there. My Grade 3 came home saying it was the BEST day he's had in school, and all the next week saying he was REALLY going to have a good day today, and is still enthusiastic after a couple of weeks. I could not speak highly enough of Minister James Merlino, his Department, and the Teachers. Victoria will not lose Year 2020, despite the odds being against it.

 

We're into the run home to end of term in all States and Territories now, but if new waves break out in other States and Territories before a vaccine becomes available, they'll have this Victorian working model to make an immediate start on saving next year for the students.

 

Term 4 in Victoria is in-school, and it will be interesting to see how resistant the schools are against the persistent infections fould in other schools around Australia. Probably still some skills to be learnt there, but we are getting better and better at living with C-19.

 

We also have an Inquiry digging in to what caused Wave 2.

We actually know the answer; ALL of Wave 2 came from one family supposedly locked down in one hotel after arriving from overseas. The children were out of control and screaming, spreading faeces around the room and a Security Guard took pity on them and let them out to go down to the shops. Security guards were moonlighting so that spread the virus and aged care facilities which has staged photos with families visiting for grandma's 100th birthday only allowed to wave though the window, while inside the owners (in one case living in Toorak with a Gucci bag collection), had ground down the costs so far that medical treatment was mimited to a couple of hours each day, so medical staff were forced to moonlight 4 or 5 aged care facilities.

Most of the deaths in Victoria's Wave 2 came from these Aged Care facilities.

Every day the Premier gave condolences to the families of the 20 or 30 who had died the previous day, and it's only a week or so ago that the last of these people died in hospital.

The Inquiry is still digging into an issue of who ordered Security Companies to monitor the quarantine of hotels instead of police, but as we know from our own discussions of duty of care, that doesn't matter much because it's accepted that if you hire security guards from a security company you've met your duty of care, and the lawyers have probably answered the question by launching lawsuits against the Security companies. Same with the Aged Care facilities, the lawsuits are going to the owners and managers.

 

What did stun me is Victoria's DHHS contact tracing system was still using paper, faxes, to communicate and collate contact tracing.

However, when a team was sent to NSW which had been touted as having the "Gold Standard" there wasn't much to learn in terms of methodology.

We're on electronic now.

 

We've had some good lessons with CV-19

• One infected family coming in from overseas can kill hundreds of people if social distancing, PPE and sanitising isn't first class.
• In Colac, one infected person arrived in town and had infected 28 people within a week. Barwon Health (DHHS) and the locals knocked it down in two or three weeks.
• An infected truck driver from Melbourne infected people in the town of Kilmore when he decided to go into a cafe for a meal and somehow the cafe didn't insist on takeaway, and when interviewed by DHHS, "forgot" he had also been to Shepparton, so costing DHHS several days head start in Shepparton. Both those outbreaks were knocked down within two or three weeks also.

So we're starting to build a structure where we can live with C-19 with a very small loss of life (post-ACF).

 

That model may also allow other States to open their borders.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[red750]

That's all well and good. But what has it got to do with recreational flying and noise complaints at Parafield? Start a topic on Social Australia. That's what it's there for.

[RFguy]

Can you lot please delete your COVID 19 argument posts and take it somewhere else ?

It has NOTHING to do with the topic. come on !

please....

 

[Admin]

[Kenlsa]

At Gawler we had 2 complainers a few years ago. We already practice noise reduction by way of circuit direction and training times.

I bumped into one of the complainants at a Xmas show and it turned out that he worked for the same department as me......his complaint was the blue stroke micro lights at first light (due to thermal activity I reckon). He had done his homework (court prosecutor) and could recognise a micro from a Jab etc. He thought the Jabs were very quiet and quite liked them. He was generally on board as far as flying was concerned. Over a couple of years the micro guys traded “up” to a j200 (he is on this site I think) an SK and a Foxbat etc so that fixed the blue stroke noise.

The other complainant was a woman who was insistent that we were loitering over he house taking photos of her in her yard.........you can’t argue with stupid....

Ken

[Yenn]

I don't know what your E9 is, but hopefully it is very fast if you can hear it 15km away.

Full throttle is not necessarily noisy, try running full throttle at low rpm and you will hear a difference. I can run my Jab engined plane at full throttle with its short straight through pipes and am told it is very quiet. My O-360 powered RV4 was quite noisy, but it wasn't in the area for very long.

[onetrack]

An E9 is a 500HP Mack V8 truck engine. It definitely has a serious exhaust note, but it's not comparable to any aircraft engine, or even Harley Davidsons with straight-through pipes.

 

The level of annoyance as regards noise is related to the pitch and the staccato firing or exhaust pulses. Jacobs Compression brakes ("Jake Brakes") produce the most intrusive staccato exhaust pulses and are noted for noise complaints.

 

I personally find whipper-snippers, leaf-blowers, and numerous other gardening items of equipment, far more annoying than aircraft engines.

[Old Koreelah]

On 30/10/2020 at 6:32 AM, turboplanner said:

... I've never seen a cop show the slightest interest in stopping a Harley for excessive noise, or even taking action against Harley dealers for fitting the illegal pipes.

Spot on, Turbs! That’s been my experience for forty years, yet I was was booked for noise in 1974 on my bran new Ducati.

I lost the case in court because it was “undue noise”, even though I told the magistrate that even at full throttle, my stock standard 72 dB Silentiums made less noise than the many Harleys idling thru around town-with impunity-with mufflers removed.

[skippydiesel]

16 minutes ago, Old Koreelah said:

Spot on, Turbs! That’s been my experience for forty years, yet I was was booked for noise in 1974 on my bran new Ducati.

I lost the case in court because it was “undue noise”, even though I told the magistrate that even at full throttle, my stock standard 72 dB Silentiums made less noise than the many Harleys idling thru around town-with impunity-with mufflers removed.

OK you should know that admitting to committing a felony that is not as bad as others is no defence - you should have claimed undue persecution, in being singled out from a crowd ie why weren't all the other noise makers charged? (hinting that he police officer involved in your case had something against you personally)

[M61A1]

46 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

OK you should know that admitting to committing a felony that is not as bad as others is no defence - you should have claimed undue persecution, in being singled out from a crowd ie why weren't all the other noise makers charged? (hinting that he police officer involved in your case had something against you personally)

Probably wasn't the exhaust noise they were worried about....Most likely the screeching rear tyre and smoke  while OK was doing donuts out the front of the cop station🤣

[Old Koreelah]

6 hours ago, M61A1 said:

Probably wasn't the exhaust noise they were worried about....Most likely the screeching rear tyre and smoke  while OK was doing donuts out the front of the cop station🤣

I protest my innocence!

As a paid-up Greenie my conscience would never allow me to waste rubber and petrol!

(Except on the Bruxner and Oxley Highways, Putty Road and Oran Park Raceway, where I could still get 20,000km out of an Avon Roadrunner.)

[Old Koreelah]

7 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

OK you should know that admitting to committing a felony that is not as bad as others is no defence - you should have claimed undue persecution, in being singled out from a crowd ie why weren't all the other noise makers charged? (hinting that he police officer involved in your case had something against you personally)

You should have told me this sooner, Skip! Actually after I pointed out several inconsistencies in the Copper’s testimony (to give him some leeway, the case was heard months after the event) the Magistrate gave me the minimum fine. Probably a bargain for over an hour of education in court procedure.

[M61A1]

2 hours ago, Old Koreelah said:

I protest my innocence!

As a paid-up Greenie my conscience would never allow me to waste rubber and petrol!

(Except on the Bruxner and Oxley Highways, Putty Road and Oran Park Raceway, where I could still get 20,000km out of an Avon Roadrunner.)

Did you sling the Avon over your back for 20 000 K? 😁

[Old Koreelah]

4 hours ago, M61A1 said:

Did you sling the Avon over your back for 20 000 K? 😁

No way; the Roadrunner gave mobs better mileage than the Best of British: Dunlop K-81s (AKA as TT-100s).

In Peter Steven’s Shop I closely inspected the very Avon Roadrunner that won the 1975 Castrol 6-Hr Race. It had enough tread left for someone to ride the race bike back to Melbourne.