RAAus cease issuing aircraft registration cards?

[jackc]

Looks like no registration cards to attach to our aircraft anymore?  If this is the case, no one can readily see the aircraft is officially registered?  I think this is poor on part of RAA, another service not provided as part of membership and rego cost.

 

[turboplanner]

8 minutes ago, jackc said:

Looks like no registration cards to attach to our aircraft anymore?  If this is the case, no one can readily see the aircraft is officially registered?  I think this is poor on part of RAA, another service not provided as part of membership and rego cost.

 

That just mirrors what's happening in the automotive industry these days. On board cameras pick up in bulk any out of date registrations on vehicles using the road.

It remains to be seen whether RAA have set up an electronic compliance system.

[jackc]

Typical of services provided these days,  it’s a wonder CASA did not say something but then they might go the same way with GA.  I have to register an aircraft with RAA and I will be demanding a card to a fix to the instrument panel.  IF they refuse me, I would have to say why register the machine?  Don’t have to be registered to fly 🙂

[Thruster88]

VH aircraft have never had them, I dont see the problem.

[turboplanner]

5 minutes ago, jackc said:

Typical of services provided these days,  it’s a wonder CASA did not say something but then they might go the same way with GA.  I have to register an aircraft with RAA and I will be demanding a card to a fix to the instrument panel.  IF they refuse me, I would have to say why register the machine?  Don’t have to be registered to fly 🙂

Printing those cards probably became cost-prohibitive. Last time I was at the local metal recyclers with a load of steel as semi trailer came in with what looked like a near new huge printing press for scrap. The contractor told me the printer couldnt get work for it.  So RAA have two options - increase the subscription by the amount it costs or go digital. 

 

Does Queensland still use car labels? If so it won't be long before they copy us and spend the money on smart cameras and software and fit them to every police car.

The downside is unless you stay alert to the expiry date of all your registered vehicles, if you're lukcy you get an email to say your vehicle is unregistered; if you aren't lucky you get booked for driving an unregistered vehicle.

 

It's a new world.

[jackc]

Qld ditched them a few years back, now there are rego reminder apps and all sorts of things.  Cameras won’t be  at all airfields though......I always had a sense of pride in displaying my vehicles credentials, clean number plates, sticker in the right place......

still clean my plates and lights.

Well, suppose I can make up my own plate and put it on the plane.....RAA will feeds us some b/s for abolishing the rego cards.

 

[Downunder]

The RAA used to extort money for a rego card...... now they just extort money!

I really couldn't care less about a card or not. 

On my list of priorities and problems this comes in at about zero.

ANYONE can bang your rego into this to see if your registered or not. Takes about 3 seconds...

https://www.raa.asn.au/our-organisation/registration-search/

[Blueadventures]

The daily flight record form that RAA provides on the webb site; since 2016, has an entry box for when the Registration expires.  I would expect that all RAA aircraft carry this and view its contents and record the respective details into it at each D.I.  Either the RAA available one or similar that covers all the information; which is what I use as my record.  https://members.raa.asn.au/storage/1-tech-form-121-daily-flight-record.pdf

 

For myself I carry a copy of the registration and pilot certificate in an A5 size small folder with a flight record sheet as well; so not having a printed card does not concern me.

[440032]

VH aircraft do not get renewed each year, it's a one off cost.

[Downunder]

4 minutes ago, 440032 said:

VH aircraft do not get renewed each year, it's a one off cost.

I gathered the rego cost for RAA aircraft was to cover the cost of a person managing renewals, registration and the cost of a plastic card.

We now have a reduced service (with no card) but I bet that reduced cost does NOT flow on to members with a reduced rego fee!

If they made registration "in perpetuity" then they could remove the rego fee and as there would be no need to manage registrations, and no loss to RAA.

 

[walrus]

There is no need for a plastic card any more. We don’t need car registration stickers for the same reason, Electronics will pick you up if you are not registered. What is needed is the management of registration, not the card. Management costs money.

 

As for a few hundred dollars in annual registration fees, you can either pay it or pay for your medical every two years as well as your hundred hourly maintenance bill. I know which is cheaper.

 

‘’As for registration in perpetuity being cheaper, I think not. The simple fact of the daily issue of available VH marks and the management of numbers for fleets indicates that such a service is not without costs.

 

‘’To put it another way, you are a punter thinking of buying a second hand aircraft. Would you like to know it’s registered? Maybe the name and address of the registrant? Do you want to know if it’s not a rebirthed wreck? Maybe never registered at all? Maybe a collection of broken used parts assembled around a bogus registration number? Maybe some more information? A secure and accurate registration system adds value.

 

 

Edited November 3, 2020 by walrus

[Jim McDowall]

It beggars belief that ALL Australian aircraft are not recorded on the Australian Aircraft Register operated by CASA. Registration is not an airworthiness indicator. The CAO requires that RAA aircraft are recorded on a register. This happens once and is only changed when ownership changes or is removed from the register (does this happen?). A few keystrokes by a low paid employee.

This annual registration scam is a hangover from the model created by/for GFA and only illustrates in a small way why CASA should be instructed by parliament to treat ALL aircraft in the same way and to stop subcontracting THEIR aviation administration to private, volunteer bodies that pass on the costs to their members who are forced by law to be members in order to conduct aviation activities within the law.

It is time that CASA realised that the population at large is better educated than they were in WW2, and will act responsibly (as the majority of VH people do) if allowed to; they do not need to be "managed" by well meaning amateurs. The "ultralight/microlight" movement has evolved since the days of the Wheeler Scout and Thruster. The majority of our aircraft are as capable as the smaller Cessna or Pipers and built to known standards.

After all about 10% of the VH register were not built to type certificates - the experimental "homebuilts". 

There is no good reason that RAAus aircraft should not be on the CASA register on the same terms as VH aircraft as they are in most of the civilised world.

[Yenn]

If all aircraft were looked after by CASA, there would be no need for anyone to belong to RAAus, because the requirement to have a certificate to fly the plane would be gone. We could all fly with no rego fees and no annual membership fee. But and it is a big but, we would all have to hold a CASA issued licence. Is that not the reason recreational flying started. To get away from the red tape of licences and the medical requirements.

We sound like those overseas immigrants that came here because Australia was better than where we came from. Then we want to change it so that it is like home.

If you don't like RAAus, go fly GA, there is nothing stopping you, except maybe that it will cost too much to meet the standards required.

[kasper]

48 minutes ago, Yenn said:

If all aircraft were looked after by CASA, there would be no need for anyone to belong to RAAus, because the requirement to have a certificate to fly the plane would be gone. We could all fly with no rego fees and no annual membership fee. But and it is a big but, we would all have to hold a CASA issued licence. Is that not the reason recreational flying started. To get away from the red tape of licences and the medical requirements.

We sound like those overseas immigrants that came here because Australia was better than where we came from. Then we want to change it so that it is like home.

If you don't like RAAus, go fly GA, there is nothing stopping you, except maybe that it will cost too much to meet the standards required.

Not quite no need for the RAAus it just would require a change to the structure of the operations:

1. register airframe with CASA once in lifetime and get issued VH- registration to display.

2. operate and maintain airframe under RAAus techmanual and opsmanual with:

  a. annual certificate of validity on airframe registration

  b. annual certificate of  validity on pilot certificate

3. 2a. and 2b. only available as services to members of the raaus (because you can only fall under disaplinary processes as a member otherwise its just on/off pull the certificates)

 

Simple structure and easily achieved if there was a political will to do it within CASA.

 

Not gonna happen though as there are only 17,576 aircraft reg combos available at any time in VH-XXX series and I doubt CASA want to move the VH-XXXX to allow up to 450,000 

[turboplanner]

4. Not going to happen because CASA would be nuts to take on public liability for 12,000 people and their 3500 sub-spec# aircraft with sub - spec# training, when they already have them nicely placed to manage their own public liability, and have steadily improved safety in recent years.

 

 

#Not implying sub- performance, just below the specifications for CASA, which is what RAA wanted, and have.

[Kenlsa]

Car rego In SA lost its label about 5 years ago, much to the Police Commissioner’s annoyance.

It was reported a few weeks ago that the number of out of rego. vehicles had doubled within12 months and continues to this day.

This would show that of the 1500 per year that were prosecuted B4 were mostly the criminal type but now we are pinching the extra 1500 for forgetfulness....even though we get emails etc.  Some still forget. 
There is no onus on the State to issue a reminder notice.

the cost saving was reported at.........$1.00! Though this seems a bit low.

Ken

 

 

[turboplanner]

30 minutes ago, Kenlsa said:

Car rego In SA lost its label about 5 years ago, much to the Police Commissioner’s annoyance.

It was reported a few weeks ago that the number of out of rego. vehicles had doubled within12 months and continues to this day.

This would show that of the 1500 per year that were prosecuted B4 were mostly the criminal type but now we are pinching the extra 1500 for forgetfulness....even though we get emails etc.  Some still forget. 
There is no onus on the State to issue a reminder notice.

the cost saving was reported at.........$1.00! Though this seems a bit low.

Ken

 

 

Once they get the car mounted equipment, discretion is removed and the cameras pick up old Charlies FJ which hasn't been registered for 50 years because he was harmless, even though his tracks home from the pub each night look like an indigenous drawing without the dots, and they pick up the tractors, and if they do a quick sweep up and down the Coles car park they usualy get 20 or 30, and even when they pull you over the camera is on just click, click, cicking away, and they're picking up the 30 year old women with $84,000 clocked up in parking fines for a bonus.

 

Problem is any fines go into general revenue and the road authority gets the registration money.

 

 

 

[spacesailor]

Most bill are payable at the post office.

BUT NOT registration.

Online or a special trip to the city office and pay over the counter, & they don't like our cash.

Even those none office people will not do rego (  shopping center Services NSW )

spacesailor

 

[kgwilson]

Removing the rego card from RA aircraft won't change anything. Who ever looked at them anyway. I've never seen any RA or CASA people walking around at any flyin checking rego cards. There are aircraft around especially in remote areas or on farm strips that have never been registered & having a card or not won't alter this. You will still have to produce your current rego certificate if requested though.

[M61A1]

12 hours ago, kasper said:

1. register airframe with CASA once in lifetime and get issued VH- registration to display.

2. operate and maintain airframe under RAAus techmanual and opsmanual with:

  a. annual certificate of validity on airframe registration

  b. annual certificate of  validity on pilot certificate

Yes, Easily done if they wanted to,, but why change the rego number? It's pretty much how you identify the exemption it's operated under.

An Annual isn't problem we are required to do them now, and much like GA, who's policing it?

We already have BFRs, just as GA do and the same goes for policing it. Those who do them will have it recorded in a logbook just like GA.

 

7 hours ago, turboplanner said:

and they're picking up the 30 year old women with $84,000 clocked up in parking fines for a bonus.

While I have no problem with picking these people up, if they haven't paid $84K in fines, why would they start paying now? I'm quite certain that the regulators that come up with some of this stuff really haven't thought it through.

Reminds me of Hans Blix threatening Kim Jong Il in Team America.

 

[walrus]

Be careful what you wish for.........

 

‘Every time you ask for a change in regulations, you are creating an irresistible opportunity for an aspiring bureaucrat to increase his authority, salary and number of subordinates- at YOUR expense.

 

‘’When someone asks for RAA aircraft to be incorporated on the VH register at no charge, the true bureaucrat is asking why, if RAA aircraft pay annual fees, why shouldn’t VH aircraft do likewise? That would increase CASA revenue and incidentally require more staff and computer systems, making our bureaucrats job bigger and more important.

 

‘’Same with engaging with CASA about medicals, access to controlled airspace, weight increases, etc. YOU see an opportunity to increase your freedoms. THEY see an opportunity to restrict them further. This is why I worried about the SAAA submission re medical self certification, SAAA want that to be extended to their members. The likely response of a true bureaucrat is to remove that privilege from RAA.

 

‘’You need a very clear and cohesive position when you argue for change or you will get the worst of both worlds.

[Jim McDowall]

19 hours ago, turboplanner said:

Not going to happen because CASA would be nuts to take on public liability for 12,000 people and their 3500 sub-spec# aircraft with sub - spec# training,

CASA already denies liability for experimental and limited category aircraft (CASR 200.???). Most of the 3500 aircraft are designed to a spec (CS-VLA, ATSM etc) which are generally manufactured in some sort of approved facility. The 1700 or so experimental aircraft on the VH register could also be considered "sub spec" on your basis Turbs.

And don't forget CASA approves the ops and tech manuals. If they were considered "sub standard" or produce sub standard outcomes CASA would be negligent to approve them. In reality, RPC's are really licences that CASA does not want to administer.

This whole "outside the CASA system" is really a piece of bureaucratic mythology. If it wasn't, you would not be able to migrate from a RPC to a RPL with  only a flight review and take all the RPC endorsements with you to the RPL.

[Jim McDowall]

19 hours ago, kasper said:

I doubt CASA want to move the VH-XXXX to allow up to 450,000

Germany has a system that registers gliders as D-9999, and we already make radio calls as Jabiru 9999, I can't see any issue with VH-9999.

[turboplanner]

17 minutes ago, Jim McDowall said:

CASA already denies liability for experimental and limited category aircraft (CASR 200.???). Most of the 3500 aircraft are designed to a spec (CS-VLA, ATSM etc) which are generally manufactured in some sort of approved facility. The 1700 or so experimental aircraft on the VH register could also be considered "sub spec" on your basis Turbs.

And don't forget CASA approves the ops and tech manuals. If they were considered "sub standard" or produce sub standard outcomes CASA would be negligent to approve them. In reality, RPC's are really licences that CASA does not want to administer.

This whole "outside the CASA system" is really a piece of bureaucratic mythology. If it wasn't, you would not be able to migrate from a RPC to a RPL with  only a flight review and take all the RPC endorsements with you to the RPL.

You're still, after all this time looking at this from the inside of the tennis ball.

 You can't deny liability for something you administer; if you make a mistake the victim sues you and you have to defend yourself or settle with the Plaintiff, however, CASA does not have to deny liability because these aircraft are administered by SAAA, a Self Administering Organisation.

 

CASA can and have audited SAOs, but that's not administering.

[kgwilson]

There is probably little point and no actual benefit to changing the Rego numbers now given there are 3500 with numbers. They should though all be on the same register IMHO and that details be made public as the VH register is now. Across the ditch all aircraft are on the ZK register. When the 3 alpha combinations run out just add another alpha character or number.