Buying a second hand aircraft

[shajen]

Hi ,

I’m about to buy a secondhand aircraft and want to see what others do about paying for it.

Im in Vic and aircraft is in QLD. I’ve paid a non refundable deposit for an aircraft I’ve not seen yet. Owner and seller seem genuine and had chats with both. Checked Facebook etc, seems legit.

But he wants to be paid in full prior to delivering plane. I’ve never done that with anything I’ve bought, if you buy a car you don’t hand over balance of money until you’ve checked what you are getting.  
He’s also worried about how I’ll pay for it, as a transfer still might not show till next day. Bank cheques would still need to be deposited, and in theory I may cancel it on him. He doesn’t want cash either. So what do others do? Should I pay now or at least look at the plane first? 

[skippydiesel]

Wow! you are a trusting sole. The sale having progressed so far I would recommend traveling to Qld (with a knowlegiable advisor if you doubt your technical expertise). If all okay hand over the remaining $$$ by way of bank check,  good as cash (if he will accept that) and fly the aircraft home.

 

Alternative is the aircraft is delivered to your location (not possession) by owner/seller/trusted pilot for your pre purchase inspection - if you dont buy the non refundable deposit will compensate seller for any expenses. If seller refuses either of these suggestions I think you should get your dough back.

 

Short answear - do not purchase without thorough pre purchase inspection, preferably by trusted expert, if you do not have the required knowledge.

[SSCBD]

Hi Shajen - where is it in QLD? AND what type is it, if i may ask? Could have an independent look at it if not to far.  

 

Edited November 12, 2020 by SSCBD

[shajen]

Thanks Skippy, that’s pretty much how I feel. Unfortunately I can’t get to Qld yet, but I have no technical knowledge anyway😀 I do feel I’m being a bit pressured. Husband definitely thinks I’m too trusting!

[shajen]

Hi SSCBD, 

thanks.

it’s a Jab SP 500, based at Heckfield, with a 6cyl 3300 engine.  I’d be willing to pay you if this was within you scope.

[SSCBD]

Sure Just 20 mins up the road. Give me a PM and i will call you if you like and can go over what you want. 

[408059]

Shajen

 

If he is prepared to fly it down to Victoria, and makes it, at least it is airworthy.

 

If you do pay out the full amount, then make sure you have insurance in place. It is your aircraft.

 

[Downunder]

DO NOT BUY UNCHECKED AND SIGHT UNSEEN.

If the owner wanted that, I would see big red flags!

Treat it as a business transaction and remove emotion.....

 

Fair enough he wants the money before you take it, but NOT before checked and flown.

Don't get sucked in....

[shajen]

THIS SITE IS AMAZING!!!!

what an incredible group you all are. 
Ive had the offer of someone to independently check out if all legit, you know, if aircraft has wings and engine. 
And the advice here is spot on! Just what I really needed. Dare I say I’m getting emotional about it all! ( I am a female, it’s allowed).

so thank you all😘

[Roscoe]

Shajen you MUST get a pre purchase inspection done by an independant person not associated with the Aircraft, and a thorough examination of the logbooks. Sounds like you are organising this now.

As regards payment, a Bank transfer if done early in the day, will often hit the payees account same day, so thats how I would do it.

When i first read your Post, I became uncomfortable about the perceived pressure you were being put under, and my advice would be to take it slow, listen to what SSCBD says, and get it test flown before paying.

Let us know how you go

[APenNameAndThatA]

1 hour ago, 408059 said:

 

If he is prepared to fly it down to Victoria, and makes it, at least it is airworthy.

That is completely incorrect.

[shajen]

Roscoe, 

yes, thanks to this site, I am getting someone to check and go for a fly. He’ll check temps, and generally make sure it matches what is being advertised. The owner is organising the condition report. I feel much happier now. It’s also been suggested, if the owner insists on being paid prior to delivery, that I use a solicitor and put money in eschrow, to be released when all ok.  Sounds like a plan is happening 👍

[APenNameAndThatA]

No point getting the owner to get the condition report. Don't bother. You need to get someone to get and airplane mechanic to spend a few hours going over it. Otherwise, don't bother. And, they need to know Jabarus.

[shajen]

Ok ... more to organise. I can do that! Thanks 

[Thruster88]

You need to get a differential compression test and oil filter examination for metal done by an independent person. We have one in the shop with low 30/80 compression on one cylinder that had been running just fine. I paid for my RV6a and the owner delivered it however I would not do that with a Jabiru. There are plenty of jabs for sale so why buy two states away.

[facthunter]

You are a bit lucky getting the advice you have. I  can see the other persons situation also. If the planes been in regular use that is  better. Sitting the engine need s inspection Borescope etc.  Nev

[skippydiesel]

5 minutes ago, facthunter said:

You are a bit lucky getting the advice you have. I  can see the other persons situation also. If the planes been in regular use that is  better. Sitting the engine need s inspection Borescope etc.  Nev

A agree to a point - depends on how much the so called non refundable down payment is. If its a significant portion of the whole aircraft value, I would strongly suggest that the vendor is morally  (unfortunately probably not legally) bound to facilitate the remainder of the purchase process. A nice little flight Qld-Vic (assuming no boarder restrictions) would go a long way to assure the purchaser of the aircrafts reliability and the vendors confidence in his aircraft. Unfortunately there are some unscrupulous characters within out community (as in any). This whole transaction has a bit of a pong about it - hope it works out in the end.

[Roscoe]

1 hour ago, shajen said:

Roscoe, 

yes, thanks to this site, I am getting someone to check and go for a fly. He’ll check temps, and generally make sure it matches what is being advertised. The owner is organising the condition report. I feel much happier now. It’s also been suggested, if the owner insists on being paid prior to delivery, that I use a solicitor and put money in eschrow, to be released when all ok.  Sounds like a plan is happening 👍

Shajen, you need to get someone totally unfamiliar with the aircraft like i said before, to do the condition report, otherwise its not at arms length!

Ring around, google Engineers at local Airports and get quotes. Be prepared to pay for this service, the logbooks will take some time to scrutinise.

Get a PPSR Report to check for encumbrances like buying a car.

I dont see the need for Solicitor involvement here. When you are happy, just transfer into sellers account.

Dont rush. A reasonable seller should fully appreciate you researching the transaction.

[Roscoe]

1 minute ago, Roscoe said:

Shajen, you need to get someone totally unfamiliar with the aircraft like i said before, to do the condition report, otherwise its not at arms length!

Ring around, google Engineers at local Airports and get quotes. Be prepared to pay for this service, the logbooks will take some time to scrutinise.

Get a PPSR Report to check for encumbrances like buying a car.

I dont see the need for Solicitor involvement here. When you are happy, just transfer into sellers account.

Dont rush. A reasonable seller should fully appreciate you researching the transaction.

Forgot to ask, is this your first Aircraft purchase?

Do you have any Engineer/Maint people that can help and advise?

[Blueadventures]

Hi Shajen  Good to see he is prepared to deliver.  Therefore sounds promising.   If deposit covers reasonable cost to delivery fuel accommodation on route and return plus a little.  He should be expected to fly down. (meaning if that is in the settled purchase amount and includes delivery) When I sold my Skyfox I delivered 3/5ths of distance,  therefore proved airworthiness to some degree.  He then took a fly and exchanged money.  Trust both ways.   Worked good.  I had an instructor with me so he could do the evaluation flight just a wide circuit and I had a guarantee of his ability plus the buyer had 1600 hours on his current skyfox.

 

Also I always recommend an experienced persons inspection is well worth the money even if their travel expense adds to the cost; as you don't want any unexpected surprises after purchase.  You need the condition report for the transfer anyway.

Edited November 12, 2020 by Blueadventures

[shajen]

Here’s where I’m up to ... tomorrow I intend ringing around for someone to do condition report. I will also be having someone else go for a fly with the owner. It’s not an expensive aircraft, and I’ll be happy to go thru solicitors account for the transfer.

I do feel it’s all above board, but am really happy to have received all the advice here. Never having done this before I was at bit of a loss as to what to do.  
love that I can get independent advice here.

[kiwiaviator]

Hi Shajen. I have recently been through the same process with a Jab 230 in QLD. I can send you a template sales agreement (that I have used for two purchases in Australia). I'm sure you have done a fair bit of due diligence however have you checked the owners details against the RAAus or CASA databases?

[shajen]

Roscoe,

yes, first purchase. My current Jabiru was given to me locally. I know I’m lucky!!!

[shajen]

Kiwi aviator,

no, that’s something else I never thought of. 
thanks

[old man emu]

Oh dear!  I have a feeling that this is not going to end well. I see someone who has a pair of rose-coloured glasses.

 

15 hours ago, shajen said:

that’s something else I never thought of. 

I really think that we ought to create a document to be posted here dealing with the the things one should do when purchasing an aircraft and the pitfalls to avoid. It strikes me as crazy that someone would by a piece of machinery, sight unseen and take the word of the vendor that it is 100% (not implying malfeasance by this seller) AND fork out a non-refundable deposit. If a person agrees to pay a non-refundable deposit, that's the contract they entered and there's no way a Court would order the return of the deposit if the subject of the purchase turned out not to be as described, or suitable for purpose.