Throttle and recovery from stall and spin.

[APenNameAndThatA]

So, recovery from stall is: all at once: full power, aileron neutral, opposite rudder, release back pressure.

 

Spin recovery is: one after the other: power to idle, ailerons neutral, opposite rudder, release back pressure.

 

So, when do you decide that you are no longer just stalling and have started spinning? Most of the actions are roughly equivalent, but what you do with the throttle is opposite.

 

[turboplanner]

17 minutes ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

So, recovery from stall is: all at once: full power, aileron neutral, opposite rudder, release back pressure.

 

Spin recovery is: one after the other: power to idle, ailerons neutral, opposite rudder, release back pressure.

 

So, when do you decide that you are no longer just stalling and have started spinning? Most of the actions are roughly equivalent, but what you do with the throttle is opposite.

 

When your world just turned upside down; I doubt that you would remember the theory when that happens, so I would recommend an hour with an Instructor in a suitable GA aircraft doing just recovery from upsets. Money very well spent, and entertaining too.

[APenNameAndThatA]

1 minute ago, turboplanner said:

When your world just turned upside down; I doubt that you would remember the theory when that happens, so I would recommend an hour with an Instructor in a suitable GA aircraft doing just recovery from upsets. Money very well spent, and entertaining too.

Saturday.

[APenNameAndThatA]

6 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

When your world just turned upside down; I doubt that you would remember the theory when that happens, so I would recommend an hour with an Instructor in a suitable GA aircraft doing just recovery from upsets. Money very well spent, and entertaining too.

I'll answer by own question, Turbo. If you are upside down, you are entering a spin, so throttle to idle. 🙄

[turboplanner]

6 minutes ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

I'll answer by own question, Turbo. If you are upside down, you are entering a spin, so throttle to idle. 🙄

No I didn't say that and there's no way I would suggest spin training by correspondence, or in a Recreational Aircraft apart from the fact that it's illegal.

You need to do the upset training in a GA aircraft and with a GA instructor both rated for spins.

[Roundsounds]

8 hours ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

So, recovery from stall is: all at once: full power, aileron neutral, opposite rudder, release back pressure.

 

Spin recovery is: one after the other: power to idle, ailerons neutral, opposite rudder, release back pressure.

 

So, when do you decide that you are no longer just stalling and have started spinning? Most of the actions are roughly equivalent, but what you do with the throttle is opposite.

 

Almost correct, forget the “release back pressure”, insert progressively ease the stick forward to unstall the wings, then centralise the rudder, level the wings and recover from the dive”

in an inverted stall / spin it may be “..ease the stick back until...”

[kgwilson]

If you have stalled and you don't drop a wing there is no need for any rudder during recovery.

[turboplanner]

14 hours ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

Saturday.

Great! Tell us how you went.

[facthunter]

A bad subject to teach technique on a forum. Planes spin differently and recovery is specific to an individual type often. Too much rudder to Lift the wing can cause problems. In a spin you are stalled, the world is going round  but the speed stays near the stall.   The first thing is Spin or spiral?  Identify which.. The clue is airspeed.

 IF you are low you are in big strife,  compounded by the usual tendency to pull the stick right back when the nose is down, which probably put you in the spin in the first place . Most planes will come out by themselves.  Some require very specific sequence of inputs and even then may be somewhat uncertain in respect of a predictable positive recovery. Proper training is what's required here otherwise prevention. . Learn how to deal with stalling, thoroughly.  I've forever recommended doing recovery from unusual attitudes training..You never know when you will get into one. Nev

[turboplanner]

7 minutes ago, facthunter said:

A bad subject to teach technique on a forum. Planes spin differently and recovery is specific to an individual type often. Too much rudder to Lift the wing can cause problems. In a spin you are stalled, the world is going round  but the speed stays near the stall.   The first thing is Spin or spiral?  Identify which.. The clue is airspeed.

 IF you are low you are in big strife,  compounded by the usual tendency to pull the stick right back when the nose is down, which probably put you in the spin in the first place . Most planes will come out by themselves.  Some require very specific sequence of inputs and even then may be somewhat uncertain in respect of a predictable positive recovery. Proper training is what's required here otherwise prevention. . Learn how to deal with stalling, thoroughly.  I've forever recommended doing recovery from unusual attitudes training..You never know when you will get into one. Nev

I agree, but see above - he's going to go out and do some unusual attitude training Saturday.

[facthunter]

Maybe others will do the same, with time.  I added an alternative  (interim) possibility as well. Stall avoidance.  At low levels you won't be able to recover from a spin before you run out of sky . Nev

[Yenn]

A good way to become capable of stall avoidance is to become proficient with slow flight. I enjoy flying just above stall speed, which can be at quite different throttle settings. You can fly sedately with a closed throttle, just above the stall, but with a load of power you are going to e quite busy and very nose up. Of course you don't do it close to the ground.

[APenNameAndThatA]

3 hours ago, facthunter said:

A bad subject to teach technique on a forum. Planes spin differently and recovery is specific to an individual type often. Too much rudder to Lift the wing can cause problems. In a spin you are stalled, the world is going round  but the speed stays near the stall.   The first thing is Spin or spiral?  Identify which.. The clue is airspeed.

 IF you are low you are in big strife,  compounded by the usual tendency to pull the stick right back when the nose is down, which probably put you in the spin in the first place . Most planes will come out by themselves.  Some require very specific sequence of inputs and even then may be somewhat uncertain in respect of a predictable positive recovery. Proper training is what's required here otherwise prevention. . Learn how to deal with stalling, thoroughly.  I've forever recommended doing recovery from unusual attitudes training..You never know when you will get into one. Nev

Good point to add spiral the the list of things that can make a wing drop.

 

I had always thought that adding as much rudder as you wanted was fine to keep a wing up. It is important to know if that can cause problems. What problems can it cause?

[kasper]

And for those with wobbly wings (weightshift) ... and particularly those who fly both ... don't forget that unusual attitudes and upset recovery is NOT the same between 3axis and wobbly wings ... as a rule wobbly can't spin but good grief they can spiral dive and exceed VNE in a thrice ...

 

Like the advice on go to a GA and do a session - go out with your flexwing instructor and do a session of unusual attitudes and upset recovery in a flexwing ... its actually far too easy to lose a wing in a flexwing if you do not do things properly. 

[Roundsounds]

Never use rudder to pick up a wing during a stall recovery, rudder is used to stop any yaw. You lift a wing after stall recovery. 
as Nev says, each type will be different. A Chipmunk requires a much different spin recovery inputs than a Tiger Moth. 

Edited November 17, 2020 by Roundsounds

[Jase T]

Break the stall... Reduce the AOA to less than the critical angle and keep it there.. Anything else you can deal with after that. Dont secondary stall with power! 

 

If It's spinning can I suggest you know the aircrafts recovery procedure.. Some are full forward some are neutral,  one I flew even had a white line on the panel, if it spun you put the stick to the white line..... I have done hundreds of intentional spins and I can say generally (assuming you are in C of G) if you just let the stick go it will end up not in a spin, it will end up in something you know how to get out of.. Roll to the nearest horizon and pull (carefully)..... 

[kgwilson]

I remember years ago listening to a radio recording between ATC & a pilot lost in cloud. ATC was trying to get the pilot to control the aircraft. The conversation started at a serious point but it developed quickly into panic. The  pilot kept screaming Mayday, Mayday, Mayday & ATC kept saying "You are in a spin RELEASE THE CONTROLS, RELEASE THE CONTROLS". This happened several times then silence. If he'd done that one thing he may still be around today.

[Jase T]

 

16 minutes ago, kgwilson said:

I remember years ago listening to a radio recording between ATC & a pilot lost in cloud. ATC was trying to get the pilot to control the aircraft. The conversation started at a serious point but it developed quickly into panic. The  pilot kept screaming Mayday, Mayday, Mayday & ATC kept saying "You are in a spin RELEASE THE CONTROLS, RELEASE THE CONTROLS". This happened several times then silence. If he'd done that one thing he may still be around today.

Want the ultimate ATC tape for an emergency.. Canadian MU-2 ROM double engine failure in IMC 4000f/min ROD  gets within 100 feet of terrain!! Manages a restart saves the day and stays calm the entire time!!!! 2 part series. Its also a perfect example of ADM and resource management.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

Roundsounds said to not use the rudder to pick up the wing, and Nev said that using too much rudder to pick up a wing can cause problems. Both comments are basically saying the same thing, and I don't doubt that they are right. My question is "Why?"

 

I am going to attempt to answer the original question, when do you open the throttle and when do you close it. My guess is that you open the throttle if you can definitely unstall the descending wing if you increase your forward speed of the aircraft. Looking at the same thing differently, it depends if you need more kinetic energy in the system or less kinetic energy, where rotational energy trumps the energy of linear movement. If the airplane is rotating too much, you need less energy, so close the throttle. The above is a guess.

[APenNameAndThatA]

Forums might be a bad way to teach managing emergencies, but I think that helping people think through emergencies and what they would do in them can only help. Athletes prepare by visualising themselves doing what they are supposed to do. I imagine that us sitting her and imagining what we would do can only help. Also, I think I will add "airspeed" to the start of the sequence "power, aileron, rudder, elevator" because if you are all over the place, and you are going fast, you cut the throttle and level the wings simultaneously. That is easy to remember.

[turboplanner]

1 minute ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

Roundsounds said to not use the rudder to pick up the wing, and Nev said that using too much rudder to pick up a wing can cause problems. Both comments are basically saying the same thing, and I don't doubt that they are right. My question is "Why?"

 

I am going to attempt to answer the original question, when do you open the throttle and when do you close it. My guess is that you open the throttle if you can definitely unstall the descending wing if you increase your forward speed of the aircraft. Looking at the same thing differently, it depends if you need more kinetic energy in the system or less kinetic energy, where rotational energy trumps the energy of linear movement. If the airplane is rotating too much, you need less energy, so close the throttle. The above is a guess.

Your guess could kill someone if he/she decided to make a note and get that into subconscious memory. You told us you were going out on Saturday to do upset training. Only two sleeps to go and you'll know all about ALL the factors involved, not the least of which is learning how to stay calm and detached which the aircaft is doing things you've never experienced before and your body is taking substantially more Gs than you've ever experienced. They are the things I'm interested in hearing about because I'm with Facthunter on this upsets require an instructor qualified to do them and an aircraft rated for them, and that's in GA. My opinion is once you've done that training, you'll know how to fly an aircraft so you're a mile away from inadvertent spinning.

 

[turboplanner]

4 minutes ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

Forums might be a bad way to teach managing emergencies, but I think that helping people think through emergencies and what they would do in them can only help. Athletes prepare by visualising themselves doing what they are supposed to do. I imagine that us sitting her and imagining what we would do can only help. Also, I think I will add "airspeed" to the start of the sequence "power, aileron, rudder, elevator" because if you are all over the place, and you are going fast, you cut the throttle and level the wings simultaneously. That is easy to remember.

They are a very bad way to teach managing emergencies. Teaching should always becoming from qualified instructors and one of the weakness of this forum is that instructors don't seem to speak up when they should.

[facthunter]

Recovery from unusual attitudes is not Aerobatics but should be done in a plane stressed for aerobatics. 

    Initially , I did more of it under the hood than visual as your turn needle,  ASI  and altimeter, give you the clues as to what situation you are in.  You must be able to tell whether you are in a spin or a spiral , quickly and reliably. Both need different recovery actions and the spiral can overload the airframe quickly whereas the spin won't (till you hit the ground.). All this was done on a limited panel as A/H and DI Gyros tumbled in those days.. Remember the aim is to not stall. and the turn onto final is where most planes that crash get too slow to maintain control and you have little time to  correct and certainly not enough height to recover from a spin. . Nev

Edited November 17, 2020 by facthunter

[Jase T]

26 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

 Teaching should always becoming from qualified instructors and one of the weakness of this forum is that instructors don't seem to speak up when they should.

Here is the advice from the RAAus instructor reference manual...

 

Instructor. I am now reducing the power and you can see that the nose pitches down and yaws. To prevent height loss I am applying back pressure to the control column and sufficient rudder to stop

further yaw. As the speed drops further I apply more back pressure and keeping the wings level using more rudder.

Note the reduced airspeed and the comparatively high nose attitude. I can feel that the controls are becoming less responsive and now we hear the stall warning. There is a slight buffet and a quick glance at the airspeed which is registering XX knots. The control column is now fully back, the nose pitches down and we are losing height. That was a stall and I am recovering by simply releasing the

back pressure on the control column and smoothly pitching the nose attitude to just below the

horizon. As the speed increases I can apply cruise power and fully recover to level and straight flight. You can see that this is a fairly straight forward procedure which we will be introducing you to during the next exercise....

 

Now you demonstrate the effect of power on the stall, resulting in slower speed reduction, more

sensitive elevator and rudder due to slipstream effect, and less effective ailerons as they are outside the slipstream. A slightly higher nose attitude at stall will be evident and a reduced airspeed at stall due to power application. The aircraft may show an increased tendency for uncommanded yaw.

Ensure the student completes the correct recovery actions, pitching the nose down to just below

horizon while applying full power. The resulting pitching up and yaw due to power application should be controlled and finally wings leveled if roll occurs.

Demonstrate the effect of flaps on the stall, commencing with half flap and then full flap. Expected

outcomes include a faster speed reduction, slightly lower nose attitude and reduced airspeed at

stall. Demonstrate the recovery action including raising flaps at safe speed and in stages. The student should then practice these with the Instructor monitoring.

Now demonstrate the effect of power and flaps and provide reference to an approach configuration, resulting in slightly higher nose attitude, increased tendency for a wing to drop, reduced airspeed and the need for prompt recovery action.

It is essential that the student becomes highly proficient with recognition and recovery from this type of stall and does not allow the nose to pitch too high, and context is provided relative to the approach

configuration and the conduct of go-around manoeuvres.

 

 

And the NZ CAA instructor reference manual (which oddly enough is written in more plain english the the Australian one) says;

To unstall Decrease the backpressure, or check forward, with ailerons neutral and remaining straight on the reference point with rudder. The student should be reminded that check forward with the elevator is a smooth but positive control movement but not a push. The correct use of aileron must be reinforced toproduce the required automatic response.

Advanced Manoeuvres: Advanced Stalling 5

To minimise altitude loss Full power is smoothly but positively applied – use rudder to keep straight – and the nose is smoothly raised to the horizon. There is no need to hold the nose down as excessive altitude will be lost, while increasing backpressure too rapidly, or jerking, may cause a secondary stall. The result is sufficient to arrest the sink and minimise the altitude loss. Hold the aeroplane in the nose-on-the-horizon attitude and reduce the flap setting (as appropriate to aeroplane type) immediately. Do not raise all the flap at this stage, for example in a PA 38 reduce to one notch of flap, or in a C152 reduce the setting by at least 10 degrees. Any benefit

of attitude plus power will be reduced the longer

the aeroplane is held in the nose-on-the-horizon attitude with full flap extended. A pitch change will occur as flap is raised if uncorrected, therefore, the nose attitude must be held constant. In addition, flap should not be raised with the nose below the horizon, as this will result in considerable altitude loss. Before raising the remaining flap, there are three criteria that must be met;

• safe altitude,

• safe airspeed (above a minimum and

accelerating), and

• a positive rate of climb (to counter the sink as

a result of reducing lift through flap retraction).

 

When these conditions have been met, raise the remaining flap and counter the pitch change. The aeroplane will continue to accelerate, and at the nominated climb speed, select the climb attitude. Straight and level flight should be regained at the starting altitude, and the reference point or heading regained if necessary. The student should expect an altitude loss of less than 50 feet, and reducing to zero when recovering at onset.

 

Sorry for the theory lesson.

 

 

[turboplanner]

47 minutes ago, Jase T said:

Here is the advice from the RAAus instructor reference manual...

 

Instructor. I am now reducing the power and you can see that the nose pitches down and yaws. To prevent height loss I am applying back pressure to the control column and sufficient rudder to stop

further yaw. As the speed drops further I apply more back pressure and keeping the wings level using more rudder.

Note the reduced airspeed and the comparatively high nose attitude. I can feel that the controls are becoming less responsive and now we hear the stall warning. There is a slight buffet and a quick glance at the airspeed which is registering XX knots. The control column is now fully back, the nose pitches down and we are losing height. That was a stall and I am recovering by simply releasing the

back pressure on the control column and smoothly pitching the nose attitude to just below the

horizon. As the speed increases I can apply cruise power and fully recover to level and straight flight. You can see that this is a fairly straight forward procedure which we will be introducing you to during the next exercise....

 

Now you demonstrate the effect of power on the stall, resulting in slower speed reduction, more

sensitive elevator and rudder due to slipstream effect, and less effective ailerons as they are outside the slipstream. A slightly higher nose attitude at stall will be evident and a reduced airspeed at stall due to power application. The aircraft may show an increased tendency for uncommanded yaw.

Ensure the student completes the correct recovery actions, pitching the nose down to just below

horizon while applying full power. The resulting pitching up and yaw due to power application should be controlled and finally wings leveled if roll occurs.

Demonstrate the effect of flaps on the stall, commencing with half flap and then full flap. Expected

outcomes include a faster speed reduction, slightly lower nose attitude and reduced airspeed at

stall. Demonstrate the recovery action including raising flaps at safe speed and in stages. The student should then practice these with the Instructor monitoring.

Now demonstrate the effect of power and flaps and provide reference to an approach configuration, resulting in slightly higher nose attitude, increased tendency for a wing to drop, reduced airspeed and the need for prompt recovery action.

It is essential that the student becomes highly proficient with recognition and recovery from this type of stall and does not allow the nose to pitch too high, and context is provided relative to the approach

configuration and the conduct of go-around manoeuvres.

 

 

And the NZ CAA instructor reference manual (which oddly enough is written in more plain english the the Australian one) says;

To unstall Decrease the backpressure, or check forward, with ailerons neutral and remaining straight on the reference point with rudder. The student should be reminded that check forward with the elevator is a smooth but positive control movement but not a push. The correct use of aileron must be reinforced toproduce the required automatic response.

Advanced Manoeuvres: Advanced Stalling 5

To minimise altitude loss Full power is smoothly but positively applied – use rudder to keep straight – and the nose is smoothly raised to the horizon. There is no need to hold the nose down as excessive altitude will be lost, while increasing backpressure too rapidly, or jerking, may cause a secondary stall. The result is sufficient to arrest the sink and minimise the altitude loss. Hold the aeroplane in the nose-on-the-horizon attitude and reduce the flap setting (as appropriate to aeroplane type) immediately. Do not raise all the flap at this stage, for example in a PA 38 reduce to one notch of flap, or in a C152 reduce the setting by at least 10 degrees. Any benefit

of attitude plus power will be reduced the longer

the aeroplane is held in the nose-on-the-horizon attitude with full flap extended. A pitch change will occur as flap is raised if uncorrected, therefore, the nose attitude must be held constant. In addition, flap should not be raised with the nose below the horizon, as this will result in considerable altitude loss. Before raising the remaining flap, there are three criteria that must be met;

• safe altitude,

• safe airspeed (above a minimum and

accelerating), and

• a positive rate of climb (to counter the sink as

a result of reducing lift through flap retraction).

 

When these conditions have been met, raise the remaining flap and counter the pitch change. The aeroplane will continue to accelerate, and at the nominated climb speed, select the climb attitude. Straight and level flight should be regained at the starting altitude, and the reference point or heading regained if necessary. The student should expect an altitude loss of less than 50 feet, and reducing to zero when recovering at onset.

 

Sorry for the theory lesson.

 

 

These are not lessons; these are extracts of what an Instructor, who is familiar with all the terms is going to impart to a student in a real-life lesson.

As far as I know, nowhere in the world is flying taught by correspondence; too much modulation and multiple-response actions are needed, and many students never really pick up terms.

 

To give you an example, at one stage I was in a group of competing cadets to decide who was going to be the school Guard with the white spats and bayonets.

On the command "By the right, quick march!" where you lead off with the left foot, but align ranks with the Right Hand marcher, one of the guys would always start with his right foot.

By one on one splitting up the command (because at times we drilled by the centre) and showing him we always moved the trouser leg with the pin in it first, we won the competition.

 

Some aircraft will spin so fast and hard that there's no time to recite by rote.