Throttle and recovery from stall and spin.

[Jase T]

19 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

These are not lessons; these are extracts of what an Instructor, who is familiar with all the terms is going to impart to a student in a real-life lesson.

As far as I know, nowhere in the world is flying taught by correspondence; too much modulation and multiple-response actions are needed, and many students never really pick up terms.

 

To give you an example, at one stage I was in a group of competing cadets to decide who was going to be the school Guard with the white spats and bayonets.

On the command "By the right, quick march!" where you lead off with the left foot, but align ranks with the Right Hand marcher, one of the guys would always start with his right foot.

By one on one splitting up the command (because at times we drilled by the centre) and showing him we always moved the trouser leg with the pin in it first, we won the competition.

 

Some aircraft will spin so fast and hard that there's no time to recite by rote.

 

 

 

TP thanks for that. My reply was in response to the statement that no instructors comment here. I was trying to add a QFI voice to the discussion without using a QFI voice.  As I said I am well aware of spin characteristics of a number of aircraft, some avgas some turbine.. I have done aerobatic charters for years and, shock horror, I am qualified to teach aerobatics (including fully developed spins and their recovery). I would hazard a guess that most QFI's will not comment on a forum because (just like horse trainers and tv nutritionists) the only thing you can get two people around here to agree on, is that a third is doing it wrong....    I agree there is not time to quote by rote but one must first gain the knowledge to react instinctually. Generally that knowledge comes form either text or teacher. If there is no teacher available (there are plenty of good and bad ones on youtube if you prefer that method) then text will have to suffice. There is nothing wrong with "Flying the desk" after reading something, it may transfer well when the time comes actual flight instruction. No, flight is not taught by correspondence but the theory is... VERY OFTEN, ask John and Martha King (who didn't have "Date night with Martha" when they were learning POF?) or Rod Machado. If you expect to only learn the knowledge and practice from flight instruction or in the aircraft alone you must have very very deep pockets and a very very thick wallet. 

[turboplanner]

17 minutes ago, Jase T said:

 If you expect to only learn the knowledge and practice from flight instruction or in the aircraft alone you must have very very deep pockets and a very very thick wallet. 

No, that's not at all what I was saying, because this thread is, or should be solely about someone who had not done any spinning being well on his way to writing up his all-purpose, any plane anti-spin actions and sharing them publicly with others who might be just starting to learn to fly or might be some of the people I see in the training area doing 80 degree turns at 1,000 feet secure in the knowledge that if they do get into a spin they just apply the APEN method from their notebook.

 

He's said he's going to do some spin training on Saturday; why not let him do it?

[Jase T]

48 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

 

 

He's said he's going to do some spin training on Saturday; why not let him do it?

He should, IMHO everyone should, in some countries it is still compulsory for certain licences and qualifications, I remember way back when incident spin recovery was a pre-solo requirement. I applaud him for doing it he is buying himself some skills that may save his life one day. My comment was directed at you and your comments that you cant learn by correspondence.... 

 

[facthunter]

Long dissertations in the cockpit while you are actually flying, are ineffective . Hardly anything is taken in, in that environment.  The NZ approach  to the matter is also far superior.. My experience is getting slow scares the $#1t out of most pupils and pilots generally. While being wary  and careful is good FEAR means they don't know how to handle it and if it happens they will probably panic and pull the stick fully back when the nose drops. Nev

[facthunter]

A spiral is usually a turn gone wrong. Often in Cloud or at night without an Horizon. The wing is already down (banked) but the nose drops and the  airspeed and "G" load rise.. RAAus doesn't allow spirals to be taught as you can quickly expose airframes to destructive loads. .  I've been known to demonstrate them and only leave the plane in it for a few seconds and quickly recover.. ( as you must). . Fine if you have height and a stronger plane.  In the early days probably more planes pranged this way than  by spinning. It was known as the" Graveyard SPIRAL".  The risk hasn't gone either.  Nev

[APenNameAndThatA]

3 hours ago, turboplanner said:

These are not lessons; these are extracts of what an Instructor, who is familiar with all the terms is going to impart to a student in a real-life lesson.

As far as I know, nowhere in the world is flying taught by correspondence; too much modulation and multiple-response actions are needed, and many students never really pick up terms.

 

To give you an example, at one stage I was in a group of competing cadets to decide who was going to be the school Guard with the white spats and bayonets.

On the command "By the right, quick march!" where you lead off with the left foot, but align ranks with the Right Hand marcher, one of the guys would always start with his right foot.

By one on one splitting up the command (because at times we drilled by the centre) and showing him we always moved the trouser leg with the pin in it first, we won the competition.

 

Some aircraft will spin so fast and hard that there's no time to recite by rote.

 

 

 

Anytime someone reads a book, they are learning to fly by correspondence. And suggesting that I could kill someone by writing down a guess is just ludicrous, Facthunter's +1 notwithstanding.

[APenNameAndThatA]

2 hours ago, turboplanner said:

No, that's not at all what I was saying, because this thread is, or should be solely about someone who had not done any spinning being well on his way to writing up his all-purpose, any plane anti-spin actions and sharing them publicly with others who might be just starting to learn to fly or might be some of the people I see in the training area doing 80 degree turns at 1,000 feet secure in the knowledge that if they do get into a spin they just apply the APEN method from their notebook.

 

He's said he's going to do some spin training on Saturday; why not let him do it?

The answer is that I'll get more out of it if I think about it before I do it. Also, as far as I know, Foxbat don't have a specified method of spin recovery, so it's going to have to be generic.

[facthunter]

I can't see what's wrong in preparing yourself and having some questions to put to the Instructor in the pre flight briefing. I know of one arranged  "course" where it was really an aerobatic fairly full on whether you felt like it or not, experience which wouldn't achieve the desired aim and can put people off doing any more.  Anytime MY instructor set  up one,  (atttude)the plane didn't use any extreme 'G" and the plane was placed fairly gently and in such a way as I didn't get any obvious clues. I could only work out what had happened by  assessment of what the plane was doing by interpreting the instruments which you must do to decide SPIN or SPIRAL. You can't do the right recovery IF you get that wrong. ONE thing I recall was the I centralised the controls to allow the plane to settle enough to allow enough information to present to cover the situation and hold the rudder and elevators firmly to cover a tail slide. That procedure I would still use. However discuss it to see if HE /She thinks it has merit. It's your money Ralph. It's a little stressful so 30 mins would be enough.( Maybe.) Do something else then back to it?

     It's not anything to have great fear about as long as you are high enough up and your instructor person is good news. Cover the Handing over ---  I have it, bit  It's NOT all about spinning.  IF you had your feet anywhere near the pedals you'd know what was happening if that was the aim. You sensory thingo's don't help much. They can lead you astray. UNUSUAL attitudes are just that. The plane may be in some position you would not expect it to get (normally) which might result  from wake turbulence or a willy willy or you might flick off a turn etc. Nev

Edited November 18, 2020 by facthunter
clarity

[Jase T]

21 minutes ago, facthunter said:

I can't see what's wrong in preparing yourself and having some questions to put to the Instructor in the pre flight briefing. I know of one arranged  "course" where it was really an aerobatic fairly full on whether you felt like it or not, experience which wouldn't achieve the desired aim and can put people off doing any more.  Anytime MY instructor set  up one,  (atttude)the plane didn't use any extreme 'G" and the plane was placed fairly gently and in such a way as I didn't get any obvious clues. I could only work out what had happened by  assessment of what the plane was doing by interpreting the instruments which you must do to decide SPIN or SPIRAL. You can't do the right recovery IF you get that wrong. ONE thing I recall was the I centralised the controls to allow the plane to settle enough to allow enough information to present to cover the situation and hold the rudder and elevators firmly to cover a tail slide. That procedure I would still use. However discuss it to see if HE /She thinks it has merit. It's your money Ralph. It's a little stressful so 30 mins would be enough.( Maybe.) Do something else then back to it?

     It's not anything to have great fear about as long as you are high enough up and your instructor person is good news. Cover the Handing over ---  I have it, bit  It's NOT all about spinning.  IF you had your feet anywhere near the pedals you'd know what was happening if that was the aim. You sensory thingo's don't help much. They can lead you astray. UNUSUAL attitudes are just that. The plane may be in some position you would not expect it to get (normally) which might result  from wake turbulence or a willy willy or you might flick off a turn etc. Nev

Nev your instructor should discuss with you beforehand what you normally do in your aircraft and what your expectations are and tailor the training to suit. There is no value in scaring the student. In fact the moment you go beyond your comfort threshold you are not learning a thing you are paying $$ to be scared! Its not worth experiencing a hammer head or a snap roll spin  entry when for the same money I can be showing you the difference between a S&L stall and a stall at 60 degrees AOB caused by you trying to let your friends get a good look while wale watching.. Or while turning downwind counting cattle.. Look at a stall speed v AOB graph beforehand and ask Q's... 

 

Generally a stall with full flap and power in a left descending turn is the one pilots need to see.... First one, brief the hell out of it, let it happen with everything discussed. Second one just let it happen, see how fast and how much height you can lose before its recovering. The difference between a spiral and a spin is almost as important to experience.. Its also important to discover what happens when you are well out of balance and the speed is low and you slam the throttle open....

 

The FAA still insist commercial pilot candidates demonstrate an emergency descent (no one can give a real reason why you would ever use one) that is virtually a spiral dive to the gro

[M61A1]

19 hours ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

The answer is that I'll get more out of it if I think about it before I do it. Also, as far as I know, Foxbat don't have a specified method of spin recovery, so it's going to have to be generic.

I suggest having a read of the POH. Under "EMERGENCIES". You will find a procedure for unintentional spinning there.

[kasper]

21 hours ago, facthunter said:

A spiral is usually a turn gone wrong. Often in Cloud or at night without an Horizon. The wing is already down (banked) but the nose drops and the  airspeed and "G" load rise.. RAAus doesn't allow spirals to be taught as you can quickly expose airframes to destructive loads. .  I've been known to demonstrate them and only leave the plane in it for a few seconds and quickly recover.. ( as you must). . Fine if you have height and a stronger plane.  In the early days probably more planes pranged this way than  by spinning. It was known as the" Graveyard SPIRAL".  The risk hasn't gone either.  Nev

As a general rule i'd agree a spiral dive comes off a turn gone wrong if its a 3axis aircraft.  However, if it's a weightshift - where any wing drop from a stall in a turn cannot result in incipient spin entry - a stall out of a turn will immediately result in spiral dive entry.  Its one of the very specifically different flight behaviours between the two control systems and if you fly both it's as important to learn and become instinctinve on as reversal of foot pedals is on the ground.  You only really need it in an emergency and the responses are not the same and have to be right for the control system involved.

 

And from the fun of my flight testing and experience to the half dozen pilots who fly two axis pou du ciel type aircraft if you act the fool and mismanage a ridiculously aggressive minimum airspeed rapid turn where you are trying to do a wingover you can stall both the front and rear wings on one side.  It will just roll you over and reverse your direction of travel as it starts to aerodynamically sort itself out.  If you release the back pressure and centralise side stick it will immediately enter a parachutal decent in the opposite diretion generally 100ft lower than your entry height ...  Hold all the controls input and it will roll out of the stalled front/rear wing on one side into a fully stalled front wing turning parachutal decent with higher sink rate.   As noted by others the control responses and recovery is different by aircraft but on pou du ciel from playing in test the HM14, 290, 293 and 1000 of various combinations of wings all respond in the same way to the double stall wingover turn and its just the angles and pictures out the front that change.

 

Edited November 19, 2020 by kasper

[facthunter]

ALL very different. Indeed.. I decided, say 15 or more years ago to not fly weightshift for that  reason. The flying flea was designed to be unstallable and unspinnable which it probably is but it's got unusual behaviour with a crosswind  is somewhat inefficient aerodynamically and NEVER go FAST in it or the nose may keep dropping. Nev

[kasper]

1 minute ago, facthunter said:

ALL very different. Indeed.. I decided, say 15 or more years ago to not fly weightshift for that  reason. The flying flea was designed to be unstallable and unspinnable which it probably is but it's got unusual behaviour with a crosswind  is somewhat inefficient aerodynamically and NEVER go FAST in it or the nose may keep dropping. Nev

Need a seperate thread to discuss in detail why your comment on never going fast is 100% false for any pou du ciel layout airframe with pushrod front wing control - basically the issue was slot effect between the wings when there was pull only cable front wing pivot control - these issues were cleared up more than 80 years ago so I reply here only in brief to stop the perpetuation of a mythic danger that does not exist.

[facthunter]

It's engineered out of the later versions built in Toulouse and other later modified designs. often with things like "normal) elevators added and some have differential slats to do x winds better. I was supplied a pile of info by an enthusiast feet high over many  years and studied every aspect of this plane. People still build the early type often with a simpler wing to the beautiful curved one on the original design.. I understood it to be rearward movement of the centre of lift at speed as happens on all wings and that set up is a wing with a very wide chord in effect and no change of the forward wing incidence would recover it.. I don't think I've ever seen anything but a solid connection to pivot the forward wing.. It's probably has potential always of getting the C of G outside a good range. They were/are very short coupled.. Nev

[Yenn]

I was under the impression that the spiral dive was the more likely occurrence with loss of control. I have never spun a plane by accident, but I have experienced a spiral dive. It was while doing instrument training and after a while I completely lost track of where i was. The instructor popped up my shades and I was banked about 45 deg, airspeed high and altimeter spinning downwards rapidly. That taught me one great unforgettable lesson.

[facthunter]

That's how it usually happens. It's easily recovered. Roll wings level  with aileron and  cut power. Pull out of dive  with care if you are fast , have power off till you are nearly level.  Nev

[Garfly]

An interesting air-to-air shot of a stall, developed spin and (eventual) recovery (way down there).

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2wUv8fJBEU

[Bosi72]

For spin recovery use acronym PARE

P power idle

A ailerons neutral

R rudder opposite

E elevators forward

 

Do it with spin rated instructor in spin rated aircraft. Have fun 🙂

 

[RFguy]

That SPIN VIDEO with the (RV?) - GEZUS !!!!

Q : Was recovery deliberately delayed for the demonstration, as the spin rate didn't really change too much once developed (I would expect the spin rate to begin to  reduce once rudder was put in as long as the aircraft attitude did not wash the tail out of authority) . IE with the attitude too flat, the turbulent wash from the wings might prevent the rudder having any clean airflow and thus lose authority.

 

Done a few spiral dives  (probably no more than 1 revolution) by letting the steep turn sag............ roll the aircraft  level with aileron, (gently) , reduce power, then gentle pull up since airspeed may be quite high. I do not see that as loss of control, the aircraft is still flying and all control inputs respond as designed. More  like a hazardous  condition.

 

Glen

Edited November 19, 2020 by RFguy

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, Bosi72 said:

For spin recovery use acronym PARE

P power idle

A ailerons neutral

R rudder opposite

E elevators forward

 

Do it with spin rated instructor in spin rated aircraft. Have fun 🙂

 

 

Except where you have to do the opposite of power idle, or other controls

 

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

On 19/11/2020 at 9:05 AM, M61A1 said:

I suggest having a read of the POH. Under "EMERGENCIES". You will find a procedure for unintentional spinning there.

You are so right. 👍

[APenNameAndThatA]

On 16/11/2020 at 6:18 PM, APenNameAndThatA said:

So, recovery from stall is: all at once: full power, aileron neutral, opposite rudder, release back pressure.

 

Spin recovery is: one after the other: power to idle, ailerons neutral, opposite rudder, release back pressure.

 

So, when do you decide that you are no longer just stalling and have started spinning? Most of the actions are roughly equivalent, but what you do with the throttle is opposite.

 

 

On 18/11/2020 at 8:25 AM, turboplanner said:

Your guess could kill someone if he/she decided to make a note and get that into subconscious memory. You told us you were going out on Saturday to do upset training. Only two sleeps to go and you'll know all about ALL the factors involved, not the least of which is learning how to stay calm and detached which the aircaft is doing things you've never experienced before and your body is taking substantially more Gs than you've ever experienced. They are the things I'm interested in hearing about because I'm with Facthunter on this upsets require an instructor qualified to do them and an aircraft rated for them, and that's in GA. My opinion is once you've done that training, you'll know how to fly an aircraft so you're a mile away from inadvertent spinning.

 

Triple fail, Turbo. The first fail was that you missed the comment in my original post that was wrong, and, if followed, actually could have caused a problem if someone followed it. I said to recover from a stall by, all at once, applying full power, aileron neutral and release back pressure. In fact, according to the FAA, you should move the stick forward (if you are not inverted) THEN apply full power. They said that the reason for applying the controls in that order was so that one was not tempted to try and maintain altitude with the elevators and still break the stall. So, the correct order or actions is the opposite the the order that I presented. I also suspect that anther reason to move the stick forward before applying power is that it is important to avoid applying more power before moving the stick forward. If you apply power before moving the stick forward, you might increase the airflow across the elevators, increasing their effectiveness, increase the angle of attack, and worsen the stall. Also, if you apply power before the moving the stick forward, and the thrust line is below the centre of drag and/or the centre of gravity, you might pitch the nose up, increase the angle of attack and worsen the stall. (I think that I will see if this is true, flying with an instructor.) The second fail was that you suggested that I might kill somebody by posting a theory. The third fail was that you could have pointed out that the reasons to cut the power in a spin include that adding power flattens the spin, and that if the spin is actually a spiral dive, you will more quickly exceed the structural capacity of the plane. People are supposed to read up the theory before they have the corresponding lesson. Asking questions here is part of me reading up on the theory before the lesson.

[RFguy]

aww come on fellas. be nice to each other, even if you differ....
 

[turboplanner]

51 minutes ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

 

Triple fail, Turbo. The first fail was that you missed the comment in my original post that was wrong, and, if followed, actually could have caused a problem if someone followed it. I said to recover from a stall by, all at once, applying full power, aileron neutral and release back pressure. In fact, according to the FAA, you should move the stick forward (if you are not inverted) THEN apply full power. They said that the reason for applying the controls in that order was so that one was not tempted to try and maintain altitude with the elevators and still break the stall. So, the correct order or actions is the opposite the the order that I presented. I also suspect that anther reason to move the stick forward before applying power is that it is important to avoid applying more power before moving the stick forward. If you apply power before moving the stick forward, you might increase the airflow across the elevators, increasing their effectiveness, increase the angle of attack, and worsen the stall. Also, if you apply power before the moving the stick forward, and the thrust line is below the centre of drag and/or the centre of gravity, you might pitch the nose up, increase the angle of attack and worsen the stall. (I think that I will see if this is true, flying with an instructor.) The second fail was that you suggested that I might kill somebody by posting a theory. The third fail was that you could have pointed out that the reasons to cut the power in a spin include that adding power flattens the spin, and that if the spin is actually a spiral dive, you will more quickly exceed the structural capacity of the plane. People are supposed to read up the theory before they have the corresponding lesson. Asking questions here is part of me reading up on the theory before the lesson.

At the risk of more multiple fails, I'd say you're making my point for me.

Note just a few posts ago in the video of spinning the Pitts, if you followed your sequence you would have drilled a hole in the ground, and if anyone had copied your sequence and done the same in the Pitts they also would have been digging a hole. Different aircraft require different actions, and sometimes different actions depending on the attitude.

Many people go on forums and take what's written for granted. They shouldn't, but they do. The Pitts example is a good one on why not to rely on forums alone.

There's nothing wrong in checking out the POH for the aircraft you intend flying, but nothing beats a practical briefing. In the Pitts case wto things stand out:

1. Where the instructor stands near the rudder and elevator and physically shows what you do with each one in a certain attitude and how the air direction relates to the action.

2. Despite the briefing there was a misunderstanding between the student and instructor. The student was waiting to be told to recover; the instructor had wanted him to recover immediately.

 

Tomorrow you will see and be able to make notes based on your own experience in the aircraft you chose and loaded with two people.  You may want to become an aerobatic pilot after the experience.

 

[Jase T]

3 hours ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

 

 If you apply power before moving the stick forward, you might increase the airflow across the elevators, increasing their effectiveness, increase the angle of attack, and worsen the stall. Also, if you apply power before the moving the stick forward, and the thrust line is below the centre of drag and/or the centre of gravity, you might pitch the nose up, increase the angle of attack and worsen the stall. (I think that I will see if this is true, flying with an instructor.) 

Yes all good considerations, also if you lower the nose with the power already applied you will accelerate downwards and have to break this vector before you can begin climbing again, you will loose far more height than if you lower the nose, break the stall, apply full power and once above your safety speed set the climb attitude... The difference can be more than 50 feet!