Glider enters cloud

[flyingbaz]

My introduction to flying was with gliding. I remember very distinctly going up with an instructor to around 10,000ft on a perfect gliding day with excellent cloud bases providing superb lift. He said he was going to take us up to the cloud base for me to experience the sensation of flying into cloud for a couple of seconds. As expected everything became grey and of course you lose immediate bearings and co-ordination. He immediately applied full air brakes and pushed the stick full forward to exit the cloud base. It was something I'll never forget. The power of cloud base lift and how quickly one loses orientation.

[KRviator]

I don't understand why everyone doesn't have an AH - even one of those little portable jobs like a Dynon D3 - as a "I stuffed up but this can save my life" type of deal. I've lost the horizon when flying before, but wasn't in cloud - surrounded by it yes, but not in it - and I was eternally grateful for that 10" EFIS right in front of me. And that's in a simple VFR RV. Being able to immediately transition to that might have helped these two idiots...

[skippydiesel]

14 minutes ago, KRviator said:

I don't understand why everyone doesn't have an AH - even one of those little portable jobs like a Dynon D3 - as a "I stuffed up but this can save my life" type of deal. I've lost the horizon when flying before, but wasn't in cloud - surrounded by it yes, but not in it - and I was eternally grateful for that 10" EFIS right in front of me. And that's in a simple VFR RV. Being able to immediately transition to that might have helped these two idiots...

I guess I agree with you to some extent, that being some sort of AH is better than none BUT these little pocket jobs are no substitute for the real thing and their presence may lead a user into a false sense of assurance/security that he/she may not recover from.

[Roscoe]

4 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

I guess I agree with you to some extent, that being some sort of AH is better than none BUT these little pocket jobs are no substitute for the real thing and their presence may lead a user into a false sense of assurance/security that he/she may not recover from.

Have a read about the Dynon D3 instrument and you may change your view.

[skippydiesel]

4 minutes ago, Roscoe said:

Have a read about the Dynon D3 instrument and you may change your view.

I have not used a Dynon however I have used the AvMap Ultra EFIS - I found its response time to be too slow for anything approaching IFR conditions and although better than nothing, its presence/availability in an aircraft may lead an inexperienced pilot to a level of confidence that is positively dangerous.

 

In short,  unless, as a pilot, you are appropriately trained AND the aircraft is equipped with IFR instrumentation DO NOT FLY INTO IMC

 

I hasten to add AVMap do not claim it's EFIS is suitable for use in IMC - I am merely reflecting a personal experience/opinion.

[Roscoe]

8 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

I have not used a Dynon however I have used the AvMap Ultra EFIS - I found its response time to be too slow for anything approaching IFR conditions and although better than nothing, its presence/availability in an aircraft may lead an inexperienced pilot to a level of confidence that is positively dangerous.

 

In short,  unless, as a pilot, you are appropriately trained AND the aircraft is equipped with IFR instrumentation DO NOT FLY INTO IMC

 

I hasten to add AVMap do not claim it's EFIS is suitable for use in IMC - I am merely reflecting a personal experience/opinion.

I use my Dynon D2 pocket panel efis to give me gps ground speed, altitude, track, and slip/skid info.

Dynon also say that the instrument is not certified for IFR ops.

Like others have said, I cannot understand why the Glider in the Video did not have any attitude indicator at all.

Is this normal for Gliding Ops?

[Rastus]

7 hours ago, Roscoe said:

I use my Dynon D2 pocket panel efis to give me gps ground speed, altitude, track, and slip/skid info.

Dynon also say that the instrument is not certified for IFR ops.

Like others have said, I cannot understand why the Glider in the Video did not have any attitude indicator at all.

Is this normal for Gliding Ops?

Gliders are not permitted to operate in IMC in Australia, not sure about NZ.  Usually there is limited space in the panel for extra instruments anyway.  Also, limited electrical power available due to having no in-flight charging system.  Gliders generally run 1 or 2 small ( 7Ah or so ) batteries.  Gliders don’t normally fly in poor weather and a prudent pilot won’t get in a situation like we see in the video.   Robert.  Glider pilot since 1972, GA since 1984.

[RFguy]

Putting aside the obvious problems and errors , before everybody runs to too many conclusions, I have been informed there is more to this than meets the eye- at least what is shown in that 4 minute video compared to the entire flight.
More will follow from the authors of those videos

[Bruce Tuncks]

Good point rastus. We should all be aware that the glider or plane might have been mistreated. At least a walk-around before flying is what I do these days.

Once, many years ago, I had flown our Janus in converting to my coming flapped glider. The next day I was at work and over the phone asked if I had done a hard landing, and the answer was that it was a real greaser, the sort you feel the weeds start the wheel spinning before it touches down. " well, said the guy on the phone, you flew it with a serious crack just before the fin... must have happened when the previous front-seat guy got out and the tail slammed down on the concrete runway".

 

[Bennyboy320]

13 hours ago, Roscoe said:

I cannot understand why the Glider in the Video did not have any attitude indicator at all.

The reason is the same as RAAUS a/c you don’t need it. Power + attitude = performance, plus we shouldn’t be flying in less the VFR conditions anyway. Attached a photo of the flight instruments I choose when I ordered my Foxbat.

[RFguy]

nice and clean. you could stick a Uavionix SW30 in the big spare hole. has a really nice emulated heading DG in it. 

[facthunter]

Think I'd add a rate turn indicator. Costly but you can fly on limited panel (if you are in practice. as you are aware). Nev.

[Jabiru7252]

compass whizzing around might make a good turn indicator?

[Bruce Tuncks]

there was a time when Bholi compasses were banned from glider competitions. They were so stable ( the plate) that they could be used as an AH  for illegal use of cloud lift.

And yes, you can use a compass to fly a bearing in cloud, even though the speed will hunt as you have no horizon. But if the compass is not turning, the elevator will work properly but with a lag compared with using the horizon.

 

[facthunter]

You really must gave some kind of Gyro. (stability in space) The plate may be damped but it's using gravity modified by your planes accelerations. Inclinometers are the same. OK in a 4 wheel drive when you aren't accelerating or braking. Nev

[Bruce Tuncks]

I don't like to disagree with you Nev, but the Bohli compass thing is a matter of historical fact. People really could use these things to climb inside clouds.

Personally, I would prefer a gyro but these were banned even before the Bohli was used.

The compass dip, properly compensated, gave a stable enough platform for the plate which was independent of inertia.

The old turn and bank simple gyro could be used, but you would be hunting the airspeed. I remember having to remove this before the nationals. Personally, I never even saw a Bohli.

[facthunter]

I'll keep an open mind on that. Dip is usually compensated by weights and it's still a pendulous set up. The lines of force would give a reference but they vary with location. BTW I'm paranoid about turn and BANK. It's a slip or skid  (Balance) ball. The RATE turn needle lets you adjust bank (indirectly.) but nothing "shows" it on limited panel. It's hard work flying on limited panel  ASI , ALTIMETER, Turn and slip and basic magnetic compass, but we had to recover from unusual attitudes  (under the hood) with only that.. Nev

[Bruce Tuncks]

Yep, I don't know the details of just what was different about the Bohli. But if you google up Bohli compasses and cloud flying and gliding competitions then you will get the story. I'm sure that they were not ideal, but keen and gung-ho glider pilots found them to be a loophole in the rules which they were happy to exploit. They would have been less use in Australia anyway, with our higher cloudbases. And  you would need a southern hemisphere version to get things right. I have no idea if they even made a southern hemisphere version.

[facthunter]

IF I was trying to get a Light aircraft to a decent height I'd use clouds if they were about. There's still an updraft under them. The cloud base is just the condensation level. The air rises into the cloud.  The more it's TOWERING and  has boiling action, the stronger the updrafts. Nev

[Rastus]

3 hours ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

Yep, I don't know the details of just what was different about the Bohli. But if you google up Bohli compasses and cloud flying and gliding competitions then you will get the story. I'm sure that they were not ideal, but keen and gung-ho glider pilots found them to be a loophole in the rules which they were happy to exploit. They would have been less use in Australia anyway, with our higher cloudbases. And  you would need a southern hemisphere version to get things right. I have no idea if they even made a southern hemisphere version.

They did.  I have flown a Ventus with one fitted.  Never tried IMC, but it looked as though it would have worked OK.  Actually, I think a Bohli would not need a North/South version because of the way it works.  Google it and you will see what I mean.  Robert

[facthunter]

It does, and works best between certain Latitudes. Interesting jigger. Seems to have gliding application in particular. Take a while to learn to use it fully. Nev

[Blueadventures]

4 hours ago, facthunter said:

IF I was trying to get a Light aircraft to a decent height I'd use clouds if they were about. There's still an updraft under them. The cloud base is just the condensation level. The air rises into the cloud.  The more it's TOWERING and  has boiling action, the stronger the updrafts. Nev

Remember sink on the way in Lift in centre and then sink on the way out.

[Old Koreelah]

3 hours ago, Blueadventures said:

IF I was trying to get a Light aircraft to a decent height I'd use clouds if they were about. There's still an updraft under them. The cloud base is just the condensation level...

From my limited experience, the base is not flat but convex. From the centre you can see everything clearly- except the horizon.

[pylon500]

Yes, convex, or as we used to say, 'up in the bowl' or bell.

As someone commented, you could thermal tightly up into the bowl, then punch out through the side, and provided it was a singular cumulus cloud, you would be out in a few seconds.

REALLY not a good idea in a street 😱

As for instruments, most Blaniks (and IS-28's) came fitted with a battery powered 2 1/4" turn coordinators (Bat and Ball), that seemed to work fairly well. 🤔

But yeah, wouldn't want to be ridge soaring with all that cumulogranite around.

[kgwilson]

It is actually concave as the lift is strongest in the centre and the warmer updraught air raises the dewpoint altitude. This incident has now gone viral worldwide and Juan Brown has posted a good analysis to highlight (yet again) the dangers of entering IMC.