New - PART TWO THREAD - If you are flight planning for an around Australia trip for 12 months. Your Thoughts

[SSCBD]

I have moved to a new posting due to some sandpit fights with members that have nothing to do with the question!

 

Remember I am using the plane as a type of all purpose UTE. Not the fastest nor the slowest but has say mission capability for the needs. Looking to stay in pubs or local accommodations most of the time. Camping overnight as a sort of last resort.

 

But have a few friends (3 cars with caravans,  campers) driving around Australia as well which I plan to meet at certain spots is the thinking as well, and will carry some stuff me me as well.

 

So Gentlemen, YOUR THOUGHTS – on this topic please.

 

Looking at the Jabiru 230d which has a lot of benefits in my mind for a long flight around Australia.

 

Disclaimer I don’t own a jab or represent jab in any way but – have flown a few  of them years ago.

 

Reasoning for the pick so far.

HUGE did I say huge rear cabin.  

 

In its VH  form it can lift UP TO 750 kilos MTOW – and yes in RAA is limited to 600 kg on paper.

I have heard you can sleep in the back if really stuck in bad weather / rain for the night.  

 

Its takeoff performance “Ground Roll”,  ISA at max weight RAA  is  226  METERS ish  is fine and acceptable to me as long as you don’t have a tight strip with big trees at the end. Most places up north and around NT - WA coast do not have walls of trees again a plus.  

Landing roll quoted is 140 ish meters at max RAA weight.  

 

Spare parts if any (hopefully not) should be quick to get compared to an overseas supplier.

It has a very strong airframe in case of slight accident ( hopefully not) – as I have read about on this forum.

High wing for shade and any roll over escape from aircraft is a plus to me.

Range of 679 nautical miles which suits the flying stints and fuel load requirements. Plus could carry  extra fuel in the rear. (I did not say that).

What Have I missed? Especially Jab 230d owners with gen 4.

[RossK]

Need to check with Jabiru on the VH MTOW. more recent builds are still limited to 600kg even when VH reg.

Would need to be a J430 technically to get the 760kg. ie it needs to come from Jabiru as a J430.

[skippydiesel]

SSCBD - I am honestly concerned with your references to "the plane as a type of all purpose UTE" and "VH  form it can lift UP TO 750 kilos MTOW – and yes in RAA is limited to 600 kg on paper." and "Plus could carry  extra fuel in the rear. (I did not say that)" all of which suggests , at least to me, an intention to explore the aircrafts maximum load carrying ability, which is likely to be well above legal & quite possibly safe limits. 

 

It perplexes me that you appear to be comfortable expressing these ideas in a public forum.

 

I am further concerned, should there be an incident, the possible consequences for this Forum, by having fore knowledge of what may be your intentions in this regard.

[M61A1]

10 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

SSCBD - I am honestly concerned with your references to "the plane as a type of all purpose UTE" and "VH  form it can lift UP TO 750 kilos MTOW – and yes in RAA is limited to 600 kg on paper." and "Plus could carry  extra fuel in the rear. (I did not say that)" all of which suggests , at least to me, an intention to explore the aircrafts maximum load carrying ability, which is likely to be well above legal & quite possibly safe limits. 

 

It perplexes me that you appear to be comfortable expressing these ideas in a public forum.

 

I am further concerned, should there be an incident, the possible consequences for this Forum, by having fore knowledge of what may be your intentions in this regard.

 

I really don't know how you arrive at that conclusion. It just means that it's well within it's structural capabilities at MTOW, and as such should be just fine fully loaded to RAAus limits in turbulence.

 

My only question for the OP is: Do you intend to carry consumables for servicing with you, or purchase enroute? Based on my understanding that Jabs require oil changes at 25 hrs.

The time of year in certain places may be limiting with an ambient temperature limit of 38°C, but that can be worked around.

[skippydiesel]

M61A1 - its not a conclusion, it is a concern over the language (words & cortex) used, that to me suggest an intent or at least an exploration, of the carry capabilities of the aircraft beyond its certified limits.

 

I did quote the phrases that concerned me.

 

[facthunter]

Jabs are OK with the normal Aviation oils that should be available everywhere..  People found the 430 struggled at high temps. . The 230 much less so. At  42 degrees all that was needed was a slightly increased climb speed but it's hot for the occupants. '12 months is a long time to cover. It's likely you would change your plans a few times during that period. I think it's too long. You are roughing it much more than with a caravan. Some spend years away from home in them and you can carry useless souvenirs that seem important at the time. Nev

[SSCBD]

13 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

SSCBD - I am honestly concerned with your references to "the plane as a type of all purpose UTE" and "VH  form it can lift UP TO 750 kilos MTOW – and yes in RAA is limited to 600 kg on paper." and "Plus could carry  extra fuel in the rear. (I did not say that)" all of which suggests , at least to me, an intention to explore the aircrafts maximum load carrying ability, which is likely to be well above legal & quite possibly safe limits. 

 

It perplexes me that you appear to be comfortable expressing these ideas in a public forum.

 

I am further concerned, should there be an incident, the possible consequences for this Forum, by having fore knowledge of what may be your intentions in this regard.

 

Skip to answer your concerns. Do not take this a any shots at you.

I am not a PC person, as I call a spade a shovel. However, I write things to make people think. The use of the word UTE is correct in the sense it has a huge rear empty space compared to other raa aircraft.  Right?

 

 

I have thought of using the VH J430 as I am still GA rated and started as ppl when I was  21yo, and pre auf and raa  rated and have been for more than 30 years. I was also flying ultralights when you could not fly above 300ft or cross a sealed road. So I have a few years of flying in Australia and am still alive.

My concern is If I lose my medical for any reason like a mate of mine with skin cancer that was caught and fixed. But CASA medicos cancelled his license because he was on a pill that had not effect on his health or flying safety even with two separate skin specialists (non  aviation) letters to casa  saying it had no effect on his health. But no effect – it took 18 months for him to get cleared by CASA. However i still maty consider using the VH version. 

 

However I did not say I was flying OVERWEIGHT I said the J230 could be flown like the J430 as it can go to 750 kg. I like its airframe strength same as the Sling 2 that can fly at 700kg but not in Australia.

 

Yes I can fly with fuel (but is a concern to me ONLY in case of a crash and fire with pax) in the back without any problem as long a I am one up or have a very light pax. So that answers that.

 

 Your statement – “intention to explore the aircrafts maximum load carrying ability” You are incorrect – Have been they done that by test flying for CASA many years ago.

 However, if an emergency occurs outback with the group, I will have in four wheel drives (see below)– I would not think twice of flying them to hospital or nearest help if that meant going over some weight limit within reason. 

 

However, I suggest you look at some flying schools these days with some heavy instructors and students that I did some numbers in my head and were at least 20 to 30kg plus overweight,

 

Your quote  - it perplexes me that you appear to be comfortable expressing these ideas in a public forum. Where did I say I was breaking the rules exactly? Did you read my style of writing to make you think? As earlier stated in the above post you must of missed  - quote - . But have a few friends (3 cars with caravans,  campers) driving around Australia as well which I plan to meet at certain spots is the thinking as well, and will carry some stuff me as well.

Definition of stuff equals = weight – spare fuel if needed – spares – tyre -  and stuff.

 

So what I am saying is that I need to put some emergency overnight camping gear in and water and sat phone in the back and maybe some fuel in from time to time for weather or problems.

As the guys with the four-wheel drives will all have a turn flying with ne to get a different perspective of the land.

Any other questions?

 

 

 

[skippydiesel]

No offence intended or taken -  I may not have been the only person to think it sounded like an intention to overload an aircraft. 

[RossK]

11 minutes ago, Arron25 said:

yes you were.... again

 

Nope, a J230 at 750kg sounds overloaded to me

[SplitS]

J230 is the perfect plane for this. Once the temp gets over 38deg you probably wont want to be flying anyway. Fly early and tie her down when it gets hot.

J230 has a lot of space and the cockpit is a comfortable place, the high wing provides shade. 

The Aircraft is super strong when flying around 600kg there is a huge safety margin giving you can fly the same airframe over 700kg if it has letters painted on the side.

If you have a problem the factory is easy to talk to this is a huge plus IMHO. They know their aircraft and have all the spares.

I am a huge fan of these aircraft plus you are supporting a fantastic Ozzie company.

[Yenn]

Surely the overloading depends upon what the designer says is OK and a decent pilot would know how to load to max weight and C of g limits, especially if they were GA rated and have been flying for 30 years. I reckon the Jab would be a good machine. Better than some others who seem to use excessively enhanced numbers for performance.

I would not worry too much about engine oil changes. If you are doing so many hours in a short time that an oil change is due, I very much doubt that the oil would be in poor condition. RAAus I don't think could prosecute you if you went over hours and GA would have it on the maintenance release. Not a hard job to get the maintenance release changed to accomodate longer time change periods. Just change from 25 hours to X days. It goes on the MR as being due on such and such a day.

[RFguy]

There are TWO J230Ds (both with Gen4 I think)  for sale right now on the jabiru website (3rd party for sale). scroll down below the J120

 

J230 is fine at 700kg.  just do your W&B sums. you'll find it has no problem accommodating rear baggage weight and staying with CofG.  (it's nose heavy with nothing in the back) 

 

After 2007 a J230 and J430 got the same wing bolts (important)

 

 

Edited December 12, 2020 by RFguy

[SSCBD]

1 hour ago, SplitS said:

J230 is the perfect plane for this. Once the temp gets over 38deg you probably wont want to be flying anyway. Fly early and tie her down when it gets hot.

J230 has a lot of space and the cockpit is a comfortable place, the high wing provides shade. 

The Aircraft is super strong when flying around 600kg there is a huge safety margin giving you can fly the same airframe over 700kg if it has letters painted on the side.

If you have a problem the factory is easy to talk to this is a huge plus IMHO. They know their aircraft and have all the spares.

I am a huge fan of these aircraft plus you are supporting a fantastic Ozzie company.

Thanks splitsS  - common sense - but will have oil in case with ground crew even if its VH rego I would still change it. The intention is sunrise departure  to miss the heat if inland - coastal will be cooler usually and smooth air. 

[SSCBD]

1 hour ago, RFguy said:

There are TWO J230Ds (both with Gen4 I think)  for sale right now on the jabiru website (3rd party for sale). scroll down below the J120

 

J230 is fine at 700kg.  just do your W&B sums. you'll find it has no problem accommodating rear baggage weight and staying with CofG.  (it's nose heavy with nothing in the back) 

 

After 2007 a J230 and J430 got the same wing bolts (important)

 

 

Yep the factory confirmed it with the wing bolts. Don't see any problem with COG. Looking for next late next year so have time. Another mate of mine want to do the same flight with me from the USA so it might be two jabs. He has been flying for many years and can get some time on jab 230 in USA in the mean time.  More fun and back up aircraft if any problem on one. 

Edited December 12, 2020 by SSCBD

[RFguy]

J230s seem to vary from 370kg to 395kg empty. if you are looking to load her up, (say 100kg fuel, 2 pax ) ,worth enquiring about early in the conversation when considering/looking.  

 

J170s are 320-330kg. great for single person touring, put stuff in a duffel  bag on the pax seat and also pax footwell. (in addition to baggage area)  same 100kg fuel gives you 850-900nm at 95 kts indicated. That's alot of places you can go without needing fuel. you'll never get overweight with 1 pax..

 

Edited December 12, 2020 by RFguy

[Thruster88]

There is no doubt J230's are fast, efficient and spacious machines. Excellent value in the used market ?

 

 https://www.facebook.com/groups/796324257055294/permalink/3778756825478674/?sale_post_id=3778756825478674

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, Thruster88 said:

There is no doubt J230's are fast, efficient and spacious machines. Excellent value in the used market ?

 

 https://www.facebook.com/groups/796324257055294/permalink/3778756825478674/?sale_post_id=3778756825478674

I agree. At least in that part  of your statement "Excellent value" used or new. Cant argue with that, nor can I argue with "spacious machines" after all it was designed as a four seater , reduced to two.

BUT as for "fast, efficient"  that's stretching the friendship, tending toward silk purse analogy. 120 knot top speed is not bad but certainly nothing to write home about and as for "efficient", yes compared with most GA but 23 L/h is thirsty compared with its RAA peers

AND lets not forget its 370 kg empty weight, is in the vicinity of 70 + kg more than its peers. So despite is spacious cabin, it can only lift (under existing RAA rules)  230 kg of fuel, baggage & pax - significantly less than many other RAA class aircraft

I am surprised you didn't highlight the factual points - rugged & minimal maintenance airframe, with the potential benefit from, the  almost certain, RAA weight increase.

[facthunter]

 It's got a fairly high empty weight but it's strong because of that. Nev.

[snakenjac]

Sounds like a great plan, a bit long in my view but that's ok - just plan to be in the Top End in the dry season, when it's a bit cooler with far less humidity and comfortable for flying.