Is RAA getting 760kg MTOW?

[jackc]

5 hours ago, Flightrite said:

Some good info there in that Vid, if you want to skip the rabbiting/waffling on go to around the 15 min mark👍
Its getting that way that you’ll need to be a Philadelphia lawyer to figure it all out😉 Jill had the best info👍

Let me say for a relative newbie, not very  much meant a thing to me……..all the quoting of Part 149, 103 etc  etc  did not relate. So, MTOW 760 won’t be needed by me as I don’t aspire, it was a revelation for those wanting to go that way though.

Tha other things like the Tech Manual amendments etc, never seem to stop, it seems rules are cherry picked from the U.S. and altered?  Why?  

We should just adopt all the U.S. FAA rules completely and where relevant make any small adjustments where required, not butcher their rules for sake of doing so.

Now, whilst I am on the soapbox, RAA is all about getting more privileges for the ‘upper end of town’.  What about the ‘lower end of town’ where Aviation was the start for many in the past and could be for the future, too?  

Yes, I bang on about FAA FAR Part 103?  

The FAA rules for this sector in the U.S. spans a massive four pages……..how simple is that?  

Or are RAA and others just wanting to wheel the barrow they have.

I keep asking AOPA about this and keep getting ignored, well it’s membership renewal time…….Guess what??

[turboplanner]

10 hours ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

How many lives have been saved by the medicals business? I reckon the answer would be NONE.

But I did know a guy who had type 1 diabetes. He knew when he was too crook to fly. He knew days in advance, and never flew when he was crook.

My guess is that the powers that be would fraudulently claim him as a success of their policy. Nothing could be further from the truth.

It might help if you did the hard yards for once and actually gave us the statistics. There is a recorded cause for every death in Australia, and you can drill down into the Commonwealth Government statistics to find them. In addition, there will be records in ATSB, and a comparison in NTSB databases.

 

Of course these are people who considered they were fit to fly that day, went up, and died on the job.

 

My guess in RA flying over the last 15 years would be about 8 who died as a result of a medical episode. I stress that's a guess from memory.

 

In the same period, lives saved after the pilot was quietly told there were better things to do would probably correlate with the 8.

 

Edited June 9, 2022 by turboplanner

[jackc]

And tens of thousands or more died in that time from alcohol abuse, then there’s Maccas related heart attacks etc etc.

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, jackc said:

And tens of thousands or more died in that time from alcohol abuse, then there’s Maccas related heart attacks etc etc.

We don't administer them; we have to stay focused on maintaining the flying freedoms we were given in AUF and RAA where a lot of people did a lot of work to maintain a responsible image.

[jackc]

Life everywhere has a risks  of premature death, and I personally know of many…….

[Flightrite]

jackc the whole concept of simpler cheaper flying, where it all started (AUF) has been lost, some time ago now! RAA has become an expensive playground for many🙁 The group G thing just adds another level of complexity, especially where an owner wont be able to maintain his machine, one of the biggest draw cards!

Im only a member cause I have no choice if I wanna own/fly/maintain  my toy planes!

Edited June 9, 2022 by Flightrite

[Bruce Tuncks]

Well in 50 years of flying at Gawler, there have been no fatalities involved with flying. Not that our members are supermen, they all eventually die from medical reasons.

One memorable guy died from a heart attack while holding an aviation medical clearance. But he didn't fly for a few weeks before dying because he felt unwell. That's why I reckon we can be safer than professional  GA. We fly for fun in good weather when we feel like doing so, and all of these things go out the window if you are flying for a living.

Sorry to be cynical about the official statistics, but if I were keeping them it would be to prove something and so you need to know the whole story.

Like the CPI , which rhymes with " big fat lie" and it shows whatever the masters want it for.

[Thruster88]

42 minutes ago, Flightrite said:

jackc the whole concept of simpler cheaper flying, where it all started (AUF) has been lost, some time ago now! RAA has become an expensive playground for many🙁 The group G thing just adds another level of complexity, especially where an owner wont be able to maintain his machine, one of the biggest draw cards!

Im only a member cause I have no choice if I wanna own/fly/maintain  my toy planes!

Cheap fun flying is still with us

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1611498805859763/?ref=share

[turboplanner]

18 minutes ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

Well in 50 years of flying at Gawler, there have been no fatalities involved with flying.

What about the pilot who died after taking off into severe turulance?

[Kenlsa]

25 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

What about the pilot who died after taking off into severe turulance?

That was from a near by field. Into IMC and tore off a wing from memory.

Ken

[facthunter]

On the other side of the Ledger how many class one medical holders have died or had severe  career ending events not long after passing their full medical ?. I think I could easily find more of these than private type pilots which would be numerically a higher base number.  The effectiveness of the  higher standard is the question.. Recreational pilots don't fly if they feel crook.  Nev

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, facthunter said:

On the other side of the Ledger how many class one medical holders have died or had severe  career ending events not long after passing their full medical ? 

These will be in the mix.

1 hour ago, facthunter said:

Recreational pilots don't fly if they feel crook.  Nev

Pilots have collapsed and in some cases died after the sudden onset of food poisoning.

My father went from Australia to Cornwall, offered to mow the lawn for his host, and dropped down dead on the spot.

I was looking to cover all bases and asked by Dame how I could identify if I was going to have a heart attack in the air and what action I could take. He gave me some advice but said In some cases, if you have a massive heart attack, it's instant, and we can't forecast it.

One night at a speedway a new driver came to me and said he was really going to try tonight. He'd been finishing down the back of the pick  and another driver had tried out his car, which was as fast as anyone else's. On about lap three I was surprised as he whipped past me; happy for him, but his car slowed and he steered it on to the infield. In the second or two it took me to catch up, I could see that his head was out the side resting on his shoulders. He'd died instantly from a massive heart attack.

I've had to make decisions on safety rules in the past, and I don't envy the people who will be doing this, but all the things that have been discussed on this thread will be discussed backwards and forwards, probably for weeks on end.

[facthunter]

The subject has been debated for a long time. The issue is  incapacity in flight. As you say food Poisoning ranks as real issue. Crew Meals Have to be different for both crew.. Some crew in emergency situations record pulse rates above 200. and quite a few have become incapacitated after landing. A stressed heart can cause sudden death usually because of arrythmia.. Fit athletes can be the same but are better equipped for a quicker recovery and record lower pulse rates and blood pressure than less fit people. Does the strict  testing regime produce a guarantee of No heart problems? NO and you can't outland a pressurised Jet that easily or quickly. Also a lot of people with pretty ORDINARY Hearts live long lives with lifestyle changes and good medication.. A stress ECG can CAUSE after effects. It's a bit like testing a rope bridge by driving a truck across it. Nev

[jackc]

I am totally responsible for my personal medical status, I have been studying Internal medicine for 8 years as a hobby and subscribe to several peer reviewed medical journals.   My choice alone…..but it has paid dividends. 

[Flightrite]

Stop it, you guys are scaring me😉When it’s your time it’s your time! We are each owed a death, enjoy the ride heading towards it!👍🛩

[Kyle Communications]

Flightrite...if you build it they will come....oh sorry wrong line 🙂

 

Its really no different for Group G...factory builts are supposed to be L2 or LAME serviced ..of course mandatory for a aircraft being used for training. Not so for private flying and not online

Build your own then totally different kettle of fish. I prefer to build. If you buy a GA aircraft say a C152 then the expectation will be the same servicing regeim...its only the licencing of the pilot really that changes and that is really only type ability to fly them

 

[jackc]

I am flat chat as we speak 🙂 

[jackc]

Just now, Kyle Communications said:

Flightrite...if you build it they will come....oh sorry wrong line 🙂

 

Its really no different for Group G...factory builts are supposed to be L2 or LAME serviced ..of course mandatory for a aircraft being used for training. Not so for private flying and not online

Build your own then totally different kettle of fish. I prefer to build. If you buy a GA aircraft say a C152 then the expectation will be the same servicing regeim...its only the licencing of the pilot really that changes and that is really only type ability to fly them

 

Group G will be a winner, but cheap C152s will end as they are snapped up.

Some people will take up the challenge and some won’t. Everyone now has a bigger choice 🙂 

[facthunter]

Flighty, Death is not a promotion and sharks won't get you if the bathplug is in tight..  Keep you eyes open. Trust no one and you get luckier. Know your body's signs and don't just act tough to impress the crowds.. Nev

[kgwilson]

An aviation medical is only good at the you get it. You can walk out the examiners door & drop dead even after all the checks. In the UK they surveyed all GA pilots and then went through the statistics of over 45 years of GA fatalities & were only able to identify 4 fatalities that had medical issues that may have contributed to the crash but none, not one in 45 years was found to be 100% due to a medical issue. This plus the survey was the simple pathway to self certification for GA pilots in the UK & it has been there since 2015.

 

The Europeans wouldn't budge though so if you hold an EASA licence you still need a medical. Now that the UK is no longer part of the EU I don't know what the requirements are if you want to cross the channel. Medicals are a crock & always have been.

 

[turboplanner]

15 minutes ago, Kyle Communications said:

Flightrite...if you build it they will come....oh sorry wrong line 🙂

 

Its really no different for Group G...factory builts are supposed to be L2 or LAME serviced ..of course mandatory for a aircraft being used for training. Not so for private flying and not online

Build your own then totally different kettle of fish. I prefer to build. If you buy a GA aircraft say a C152 then the expectation will be the same servicing regeim...its only the licencing of the pilot really that changes and that is really only type ability to fly them

 

That's an oversimplification.

For VH and RA type application the training needs to be different if low cost for RA, or the higher level of training and pilot limits is to be maintained. Navigation needs are different, Met needs are different, flight regulations to go with the differences are different. 

For double the pax more care is required to decide what design can be used, what maintenance standard needs to be maintained where the bigger risk load can be taken.

Building standards will be compared against fully developed mass produced aircraft design. Home builts may get less pax.

Medical standards need to be set.

And that's just what I can remember in a few minutes. IT's a pity CAS ditched the Endorsement system for Aircraft under 4500 kg, because you could have a heap of steps with different training, aircraft, pax and pilot freedoms, but there could be a temptation to go one way or the other and finish up with a lessideal result than we have now.

 

[onetrack]

I had a BIL who had constant heart trouble all his life, starting from about 40. I think he had 5 heart attacks in total, and the last one, when he was 70, finished him for good.

But I can remember him telling me of his experience with one heart attack, where he felt symptoms, and got his wife to drive him to the hospital - whereby he keeled over, right in the foyer.

The staff rushed out and revived him, and he lived quite a few more years yet, on blood thinners and medications galore.

 

But he told me when he "died" in the hospital foyer, he said all he experienced was his vision shutting down, narrowing as his field of view closed in. He remembered that part quite clearly.

But after that, as he dropped to the floor, he remembered nothing, until he woke up with the staff doing CPR on him. I've known "healthy" blokes who dropped dead with heart attacks in their late 20's.

 

Another interesting event is SCAD - Spontaneous Coronary Artery Dissection. Your arteries have an inner lining and an outer sheath, sort of like the double-layer construction of hydraulic hose.

If the inner lining of the artery develops a split, the blood runs down between the two layers, and it will push the inner lining inwards, and block the blood flow. SCAD affects women more than men.

 

My middle nephews wife suffered a SCAD when she was 42 - and there wasn't a skerrick of bad heart history in her whole family. She died 5 times before the doctors could figure out what had happened.

They thought she'd simply had a heart attack, and were trying standard heart attack revival procedures - which don't work for a SCAD event.

She ended up wearing a mechanical heart pump for 9 mths, to try and save her heart - but it didn't work, and she had to go back in for a heart swap. Fortunately, it all turned out well, and she's still alive and well around 6 years later.

[jackc]

[Kyle Communications]

Turbs

 

Group G is no different it is 2 POB thats it. The extra training is realistically to get used to flying a heavier aircraft...literally no different to upgrading to a RPL..just need to get the hours up and or signed off on type

 

Maintenaince is realistically no different either. Just the weight of the aircraft is going up

KISS

 

[Thruster88]

1 hour ago, jackc said:

Group G will be a winner, but cheap C152s will end as they are snapped up.

Some people will take up the challenge and some won’t. Everyone now has a bigger choice 🙂 

Right now any RAAus pilot can go and get an RPL and fly that C152. It will take the same time as getting a group G endorsement if they are competent.

 

The only difference is they would need a medical. It is going to be impossible to justify a Cessna 152 under RAAus can be flown without a medical while one under CASA still requires a medical. I see self declared medicals for private RPL and PPL pilots coming soon.